View Poll Results: Should illegal aliens get amnesty

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  • Yes, make them citizens with no extra requirements

    5 14.71%
  • Yes, but make them pay a form of reparations to earn citizenship

    4 11.76%
  • No, they are criminals

    22 64.71%
  • other/don't know

    3 8.82%
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Thread: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

  1. #91
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    no one is forcing you to be like another.
    Governments shouldnt be encouraging the problem.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    I am decrying the obviously racist nature of the law, and that makes me "a bit of a racist"? I am well aware that more than brown people are illegal here--that is what makes the hypocrisy and racism of the law so obvious. You don't see Lou Dobbs on every night ranting about all the Swedes with expired Visas, or the illegal Canadians. Nor are there white vigilante groups standing on the Canadian border with guns. The immigration restrictions are fundamentally about Mexico, Honduras, and the other places where poor, brown people come from.
    The immigration restrictions apply to ALL our borders. Not just our southern border. And I challenge you to prove otherwise.

    The reason that the media and most others talk about the southern border more than the others is because that is where most illegals come from. It is the biggest problem so deserves the biggest attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    My point is that border laws are based on asinine assumptions. The exclusion of certain people from the rights afforded to the American people assumes that we are somehow special, and the outsiders somehow unworthy. Otherwise it would be far more difficult to treat illegal immigrants like dirt, as the system must. If we were to think of them as truly human beings, the current system wouldn't be possible.
    No it doesn't assume we are special. It assumes that we have limited resources. It assumes that other governments will take their responsibilities seriously and take care of their own people. Border security is also about protection of a countries citizens from those that wish to do harm to them. Either through a terrorist act or through a normal murder, rape, theft etc etc. (when I say "normal" I mean not a terrorist act)

    If you believe any of those to be "asinine assumptions" then I challenge you to prove otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Limited resources?? Is that the justification that is used to allow one man to own two television stations, 12 factories, 8 homes, three yachts, 50 vintage cars and another man to own nothing? For one man to have all the abundance to feed a ten thousand people and to squander it on his own luxuries? The capitalist system, long ago, abolished the necessity of poverty, starvation and material want of any kind with its high levels of production. All of these horrors are maintained in order to maximize profits, not because there isn't enough to go around.
    As for economics, my solidarity is with the working class of Mexico, the working class of Honduras, the working class of Bolivia, the working class of Ecuador, not with the ruling class of any of these, nor of the ruling class of the United States.
    Thank you for showing that you have no understanding of what limited resources means.

    As far as rich folks goes what is so different here than any other country? How many rich folks are there in Europe? China? Mexico?

    BTW just for an example, did you know Bill Gates gives about 58% of his money to charities? And when he dies he's going to leave his entire fortune to the charity foundation that him and his wife started? Link Hmm..imagine that.

    You can be concerned all you want about the working class of those countries. That's your perogative. My concern is with the working class of Americans. I would also submit that those countries should also be taking care of their poor. It is not the US's job to be a nanny state to the entire poor community in the entire world. We do not have the resources or man power to be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Apparently in your estimation they exist in order to exclude people from basic human rights and to exploit their poverty for economic means.
    Again thanks for showing that you have no idea why countries exist.
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  3. #93
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Other -

    Completely control the border first.
    If the border is not under control then amnesty is pointless and would just encourage more to come.

    If the border is proven to be secure, then work with the ones that have no criminal record and give them a way to become a citizen.
    But don't just hand it to them. Let them earn it by learning English and paying back taxes.

  4. #94
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, then let's use a hypothetical example instead of an historical example: Suppose that everyone in Congress gets drunk one night and passes a law making it a crime for any non-citizen to wear T-shirts with silly phrases on them. When there are protests, some people say that the law should not be changed because it rewards lawbreakers.

    Do you see any problem with this argument? It offers no rational explanation for why such a thing should be a crime in the first place.
    The problem with this argument is it makes the exception the rule. Just because some laws can be stupid does not mean we should not have a general respect for the law.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #95
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Um no. It is any nation's right to regulate who comes into the country.
    It is more than that; it is a necessity. No society, culture or social association can take an environment of constant, rapid demographic and social change without coming under a lot of stress and tension. Certainly to believe such you'd have to hold society and social institutions to be relatively ephemeral to a view of mainly self-sufficient individuals.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 10-02-09 at 03:29 AM.
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The immigration restrictions apply to ALL our borders. Not just our southern border. And I challenge you to prove otherwise.
    The northern border is manned by 12 guys in booths. The southern border is a militarized zone complete with endless miles of walls, INS agents with night vision and helicopters, armed vigilante groups etc. Matter settled.
    No it doesn't assume we are special. It assumes that we have limited resources.
    Limited how? Limited in that they are concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite class? To be sure. Most definitely not limited in the sense that they couldn't feed, clothe and house the entire world. They surely could. The obscene, maniacal excesses of the rich prove this.
    It assumes that other governments will take their responsibilities seriously and take care of their own people.
    Now that is a hell of an assumption.
    Thank you for showing that you have no understanding of what limited resources means.
    Do we really need the sarcastic thank you's at this stage of our maturity? I know what "limited resources" means. It means that you do not yet realize that current levels of production are more than adequate to abolish poverty, starvation and death by curable disease. It means that you haven't studied the economic realities of the current global system enough to realize that these horrors are a result of the priorities of capitalism, not the result of scarcity. Observe India, a country struggling with famine, EXPORTING and DESTROYING grain to maximize profits and you have capitalism in a nutshell.
    As far as rich folks goes what is so different here than any other country? How many rich folks are there in Europe? China? Mexico?
    Good point, there isn't much of a difference, they are all exploitative, all members of the ruling class and they are all interested in keeping the working class politically weak and divided. One difference is that our capitalists are the best. The best at making money for themselves and the best at keeping the working class weak and divided. But the similarities far outweigh the differences.
    You can be concerned all you want about the working class of those countries. That's your perogative. My concern is with the working class of Americans.
    You can't truly be concerned for one without being concerned for the other. Their interests are interconnected, indeed, the same.
    I would also submit that those countries should also be taking care of their poor.
    Agreed entirely. Our country should start taking care of its poor as well.
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Deport any illegal who seeks medical attention at an emergency room, as long as you make sure that their health issue has been sufficiently dealt with.

    This would eliminate the need to "round them up", they do it themselves at emergeny rooms accross the nation.

  8. #98
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    The northern border is manned by 12 guys in booths. The southern border is a militarized zone complete with endless miles of walls, INS agents with night vision and helicopters, armed vigilante groups etc. Matter settled.
    I live on the Canadian border. There are a hell of alot more border agents than you think. However you may be right that there are more border agents on the southern border. But then as I have already stated there are far more illegals coming into the US from Mexico than there is Canada. Which would mean the demand for more agents.

    As far as walls go I've seen those "walls". Most of it is just old fences designed to keep cows in...not keep people out. Other parts are just posts in the ground designed to keep cars from coming through...but a person can easily walk past without any climbing what so ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Limited how? Limited in that they are concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite class? To be sure. Most definitely not limited in the sense that they couldn't feed, clothe and house the entire world. They surely could. The obscene, maniacal excesses of the rich prove this.
    No the US cannot feed and clothe the entire world by itself. There are 6 billion people on this planet of which 80% is considered poor. Link

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Now that is a hell of an assumption.
    No more so than you assuming that the US can feed and clothe 80% of the world all by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Do we really need the sarcastic thank you's at this stage of our maturity? I know what "limited resources" means. It means that you do not yet realize that current levels of production are more than adequate to abolish poverty, starvation and death by curable disease. It means that you haven't studied the economic realities of the current global system enough to realize that these horrors are a result of the priorities of capitalism, not the result of scarcity. Observe India, a country struggling with famine, EXPORTING and DESTROYING grain to maximize profits and you have capitalism in a nutshell.
    There is more to limited resources than just grain. Lack of skilled people is also a limited resource. And our biggest problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Good point, there isn't much of a difference, they are all exploitative, all members of the ruling class and they are all interested in keeping the working class politically weak and divided. One difference is that our capitalists are the best. The best at making money for themselves and the best at keeping the working class weak and divided. But the similarities far outweigh the differences.
    Do you really think that there is come global conspiracy to keep everyone but the rich poor? Because that is sure what it sounds like from reading your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    You can't truly be concerned for one without being concerned for the other. Their interests are interconnected, indeed, the same.
    Actually yes I can. Know why? Because I know 2 things.

    1: That there is only so much one person can do. One person cannot change the entire world to where no one is starving or going cold.

    2: I expect other governments to take care of their own people.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Agreed entirely. Our country should start taking care of its poor as well.
    It tries to. That is why we have Medicaid, Medicare, WIC, welfare, and many many other programs. Hell Obama and the dems are even trying to make everyone pay to cover everyone else in the US for medical care. But of course there is only so much that they can do and still allow basic human rights. The very same thing which you decry them of not doing. And 12-20 million illegals in the US proves that they do get basic human rights. If they didn't then every single one that got caught trying to cross into the US would be shot and not a thing ever said about it.
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  9. #99
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    The northern border is manned by 12 guys in booths. The southern border is a militarized zone complete with endless miles of walls, INS agents with night vision and helicopters, armed vigilante groups etc. Matter settled.
    There are more than just 12 guys in booths guarding the border and minute men patrolling the northern border too. Considering most illegals come from south of the border it makes sense to make sure the southern border is more secured.




    Do we really need the sarcastic thank you's at this stage of our maturity? I know what "limited resources" means. It means that you do not yet realize that current levels of production are more than adequate to abolish poverty, starvation and death by curable disease. It means that you haven't studied the economic realities of the current global system enough to realize that these horrors are a result of the priorities of capitalism, not the result of scarcity. Observe India, a country struggling with famine, EXPORTING and DESTROYING grain to maximize profits and you have capitalism in a nutshell. Good point, there isn't much of a difference, they are all exploitative, all members of the ruling class and they are all interested in keeping the working class politically weak and divided. One difference is that our capitalists are the best. The best at making money for themselves and the best at keeping the working class weak and divided. But the similarities far outweigh the differences.

    The problems of the rest of the world and your rants against capitalism are irrelevant to the issue of illegal immigration.


    You can't truly be concerned for one without being concerned for the other. Their interests are interconnected, indeed, the same.

    It is not interconnected.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #100
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    Re: Illegal Aliens and Amnesty

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Actually that is our tradition. Do you belong to the US? What exactly do you mean by everyone else's refuse? These are people. They're not garbage. If anything they're the pick yourself up by your bootstraps types. They're not some dumb tards who choose to just sit in squalor in a country that has zero to offer them. They risk it all for a better life rather than just sitting with their thumbs up their arse lamenting the fact that they were born somewhere sucky.

    I freaking admire them. I know if I was poor and lived in a land of zero opportunity and all I had to do was have the balls and the courage to get across a line drawn on a map and birth my kids on the other side of said line in order to change the destiny of generations of my bloodline to come I'd do it. I'd do it proudly.

    That is what you're up against.

    You can't stop them from coming.
    Sure we can. They're coming so they can leech off the free services provided by the taxpayers of another nation. Take that away from them, deny them jobs and they won't be coming because there will be nothing to come for. I don't care where they were born, that's not my problem, I care what impact they're having on the nation I happen to be a citizen of and they are costing billions of dollars of taxpayer-funded services whether you like it or not.

    If they want to legally become citizens, great, I'll welcome them with open arms. But what they're doing is breaking into your house, eating your food, wearing your clothes and telling you "you can't stop us, don't try."
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