View Poll Results: Which Libertarian Issues Do You Agree With

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  • Laissez Faire capitalism

    19 38.78%
  • End drug prohibition

    37 75.51%
  • avid interventionism in foreign policy

    17 34.69%
  • End foreign aid

    25 51.02%
  • End gun bans

    31 63.27%
  • Deregulate healthcare

    19 38.78%
  • Semi-amnesty for illegal aliens(work for amnesty)

    17 34.69%
  • End welfare

    20 40.82%
  • Allow opting out of Social Security

    28 57.14%
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Thread: Libertarian Issues

  1. #31
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Legitimate freedom of movement does not entail illegal actions. This country is a sovereign nation with laws. Foreigners are not exempt from these laws, no matter how much you'd like them to be.
    The ethical legitimacy of freedom of movement is not determined by existing legal statutes, otherwise the Underground Railroad would have been an extension of slavery. Though I can't expect everyone to accept the more radical libertarian position against the existence of nation-states, outright jingoism simply isn't compatible with libertarianism in any form.

  2. #32
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Legitimate freedom of movement does not entail illegal actions. This country is a sovereign nation with laws. Foreigners are not exempt from these laws, no matter how much you'd like them to be.
    That is a tautology. What you are essentially saying is that you oppose changing the policy because it is illegal. That doesn't answer the question of WHY.
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is a tautology. What you are essentially saying is that you oppose changing the policy because it is illegal. That doesn't answer the question of WHY.
    As I understand his comment, he is saying that to enter the country illegally is, well, illegal. Why is not important, to enter the country illegally makes you a criminal under our laws, and as such, you should not get amnesty.

    Edit: changing immigration policy is fine, but amnesty is not, since allowing criminals to become citizens is not in our best interest

  4. #34
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    The ethical legitimacy of freedom of movement is not determined by existing legal statutes, otherwise the Underground Railroad would have been an extension of slavery. Though I can't expect everyone to accept the more radical libertarian position against the existence of nation-states, outright jingoism simply isn't compatible with libertarianism in any form.
    America is a country with laws and borders. Your false accusations of jingoism do not change this.

  5. #35
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is a tautology. What you are essentially saying is that you oppose changing the policy because it is illegal. That doesn't answer the question of WHY.
    Imagine two nations side-by-side, nation A and nation B.

    Nation A is a democracy with open borders.

    Half of nation B's population crosses the border and takes up residence in nation A, gets fake IDs and starts voting as a bloc.

    Nation B's population, culture and mindset just took over Nation A without a shot fired.

    Granted this is a simplistic example, but it illustrates the fundamental reason that a nation must control its borders and regulate immigration, or it can cease to be a nation.

    I've cited some other issues which you choose to ignore or marginalize.

    Yet another is how the issue of illegal immigration tends to lead to a loss of respect for the law in general, especially when the law is percieved as not enforcing immigration laws.

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  6. #36
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    As I understand his comment, he is saying that to enter the country illegally is, well, illegal. Why is not important, to enter the country illegally makes you a criminal under our laws, and as such, you should not get amnesty.

    Edit: changing immigration policy is fine, but amnesty is not, since allowing criminals to become citizens is not in our best interest
    But amnesty is, by definition, the forgiveness for a crime. So that still doesn't answer the question of why it's bad, or why we need to harass illegal immigrants.
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    As I understand his comment, he is saying that to enter the country illegally is, well, illegal. Why is not important, to enter the country illegally makes you a criminal under our laws, and as such, you should not get amnesty.

    Edit: changing immigration policy is fine, but amnesty is not, since allowing criminals to become citizens is not in our best interest
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    America is a country with laws and borders. Your false accusations of jingoism do not change this.
    Here we have examples of statements rather than claims. Actual logical argument or evidence as to the ethical nature of immigration prohibitions or their elimination is not advanced; instead, known facts about existing immigration law are repeated. "Illegal immigration is wrong because it's illegal."


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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That is a tautology. What you are essentially saying is that you oppose changing the policy because it is illegal. That doesn't answer the question of WHY.
    I believe a sovereign nation has the right to maintain the integrity of its borders. I also believe immigrants should culturally assimilate before becoming citizens.

  9. #39
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But amnesty is, by definition, the forgiveness for a crime. So that still doesn't answer the question of why it's bad, or why we need to harass illegal immigrants.
    Forgiveness of a crime is something that we can, occasionally, offer to our citizens. We should not turn a blind eye to the crimes of prospective citizens. To put it another way, there should be definite requirements for a foreign person to become a citizen, and a not unreasonable one is to not have committed crimes in this country.

  10. #40
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    Re: Libertarian Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Imagine two nations side-by-side, nation A and nation B.

    Nation A is a democracy with open borders.

    Half of nation B's population crosses the border and takes up residence in nation A, gets fake IDs and starts voting as a bloc.
    Latinos don't vote as a bloc. Approximately 40% of them voted for George Bush in 2004. 32% of them voted for John McCain in 2008.

    And in neither election were there any border states where the election was close enough to sway the outcome. Except for maybe New Mexico in 2004...but since Bush won that state, one would expect him to win by an even larger margin if there was an epidemic of illegal aliens voting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    Nation B's population, culture and mindset just took over Nation A without a shot fired.

    Granted this is a simplistic example, but it illustrates the fundamental reason that a nation must control its borders and regulate immigration, or it can cease to be a nation.
    Demographics are constantly changing. The United States has always been a mixing of cultures. Each wave of immigrants has adapted to American culture, while adding their unique input. What is wrong with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    I've cited some other issues which you choose to ignore or marginalize.
    Uhh it looks to me like post #18 was the only other post on this subject that you've made in this thread. And I responded to each and every point.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-30-09 at 11:34 PM.
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