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Should getting a sex change be legal?

Should getting a sex change be legal?

  • Yes, it should be legal

    Votes: 75 87.2%

  • No, it should be illegal

    Votes: 10 11.6%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Total voters
    86
jamesrage said:
So you admit that the limit for you is just allowing people to go to corrupt doctors so they can pretend to be a gender they are not? If you allow someone to go to a corrupt doctor to modify some body parts or add implants so that person can pretend to be a gender they are not then why not let someone go to a doctor so they can pretend to be a species they are not? Both are either absurd or neither are absurd. A man who thinks he is a woman trapped in a man's body is no different and is just as insane as a person who thinks they are a tiger,duck or cat trapped in man's body.
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Who is corrupting doctors? People are unhappy with the way they are, and they pay a doctor to fix them. What is the big deal? And I think both you and I should consider ourselves fortunate for the fact that we didn't grow up with gender confusion like transgendered people. I imagine you would be whistling a different tune of that were the case. And no, your assertion is far more insane just as the idiotic argument about gay marriage is.

Little Timmy can wear fake dog ears, a fake fur coat and a tail and have everyone in his school call him spot until he is old enough to get to get some surgeries to modify his body parts and add implants to make it more physical. WHy should that be any more or less ridiculous than allowing little Nicholas to go to school wearing a dress and having everyone call him Nicole until he is old enough to get some surgeries(yes this is actually happening in real life)?
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Personally, I have no problem with people who wish to modify their bodies this way. There already are people who do. For example:

tiger-man.jpg


I have no problem with people who want to do stuff like that. It's their body and it should be their choice. However, your comparison between people who modify their bodies this way and people who are transgendered is absurd and ignorant.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Who is corrupting doctors?
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Those who take advantage of mentally ill people, this is almost the the same as mentally healthy adult sexually taking advantage of a minor or an adult with a mentality of a 5 year old.


People are unhappy with the way they are, and they pay a doctor to fix them. What is the big deal?
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They are not fixed, a man pretending to be a woman is still a man even though a currupt doctor gave him a fake vagina and fake breast. Its the equivalent of giving someone with multiple personality disorders multiple IDs, birth certificates and SS cards and calling them cured or gluing feathers,fake wings and bill on someone claiming to be a duck and calling them cured. They are still mentally ill. Facilitating a mental illness is not a cure.


I have no problem with people who want to do stuff like that. It's their body and it should be their choice. However, your comparison between people who modify their bodies this way and people who are transgendered is absurd and ignorant.
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Again no it is not absurd or ignorant. What is absurd is to sit there and claim its okay for a man to get surgery so he can pretend to woman or for a man to get surgery to pretend to be a different species. You can't have it it both ways, either both are absurd and ignorant or neither are because in both cases it is a mentally ill people getting surgery and taking drugs or hormones to help them carry out a delusion and expecting the state to call them what ever gender or species they want to pretend to be.
 
jamesrage said:
Those who take advantage of mentally ill people, this is almost the the same as mentally healthy adult sexually taking advantage of a minor or an adult with a mentality of a 5 year old.
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And yet you have no proof, nor are you qualified to call these people mentally ill.

They are not fixed, a man pretending to be a woman is still a man even though a currupt doctor gave him a fake vagina and fake breast. Its the equivalent of giving someone with multiple personality disorders multiple IDs, birth certificates and SS cards and calling them cured or gluing feathers,fake wings and bill on someone claiming to be a duck and calling them cured. They are still mentally ill. Facilitating a mental illness is not a cure.
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Call it what you want. They are finally happy and comfortable in their own skin. I say, more power to them.


Again no it is not absurd or ignorant. What is absurd is to sit there and claim its okay for a man to get surgery so he can pretend to woman or for a man to get surgery to pretend to be a different species. You can't have it it both ways, either both are absurd and ignorant or neither are because in both cases it is a mentally ill people getting surgery and taking drugs or hormones to help them carry out a delusion and expecting the state to call them what ever gender or species they want to pretend to be.
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Have you ever met or spoken to someone who has had a sex change operation? I'm guessing no. Considering this, you really have no idea what kind of people they are, what is going through their head when they do this, etc. Nor do you have the expertise to assert that they are mentally ill. As much as I respect your opinion on the matter, it holds very little water.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
And yet you have no proof, nor are you qualified to call these people mentally ill.
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No one needs a degree to state the obvious. If you think you need a degree to state the obvious then no amount of education is going to help you. Its like saying you need a degree to say that the earth goes around the sun or that the price of gas sometimes sucks.

Call it what you want. They are finally happy and comfortable in their own skin. I say, more power to them.
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Being happy or unhappy is irrelevant in whether or not someone is sane or insane.

Have you ever met or spoken to someone who has had a sex change operation? I'm guessing no.
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Irrelevant. Do you need to know a thief to state that stealing is a crime? Do you need to know a politician to say that you do not like or like a politician's beliefs? Do you need to know a code pink member to know that they are anti-military? Do you need to go sky diving to know that sky diving is dangerous? Do you need to go riding on the hood of a car while your buddy is stoned of his ass driving the car to know that riding on the hood of a car is dangerous? Do you need to smoke a lot of marijuana to know that smoking marijuana can get you stone?

Considering this, you really have no idea what kind of people they are, what is going through their head when they do this, etc. Nor do you have the expertise to assert that they are mentally ill.
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Again you do not need a degree to state the obvious, if you think you do then no amount of education in the world is going to help you with common sense. Normal sane people do not think they are the wrong gender, normal sane people do not mutilate or have themselves modified just so they can pretend to be something they are not. Sticking a fake vagina and fake breast on a man does not make him a woman nor is it a cure. It just a band aid and greedy doctors lining their pockets by taking advantage of a mentally ill person.
 
marduc said:
Something that seems to be overlooked here in all this talk of "its a mental disorder" is the fact that something like 1 in every 2000 people are born intersexed (which is entirely physical) and then need to either live their life in a between sexed limbo, or have had a sex arbitrarily assigned to them, many times involving surgical manipulation to assign them a "proper" gender.

Those who seek out sex changes and those who feel they are "in the body of the wrong sex" are quite few and far between, the thing that would be interesting to know is of these people how many of those were actually among the 1 in 2000 that were born with some form of intrasexed condition in the first place.
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If someone was actually born with both male and female physical characteristics, that is a horse of a different color imo, because there is an obvious and physiological cause to their malady.
 
Goshin said:
If someone was actually born with both male and female physical characteristics, that is a horse of a different color imo, because there is an obvious and physiological cause to their malady.
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I don't think that if they were actually aware that they were intersexed to some degree they would be flaunting what color their horse was to begin with.

Then there is the problem that it has long been standard procedure to assign a sex shortly after birth, and to surgically enforce this assignment where necessary, and then raise the child according to which sex was arbitrarily assigned (usually assigned as a determination on clitoral/phallic tissue measurements). Many intrasexed children grow up not even being aware that they in fact are intrasexed or were intrasexed at birth.

This is just taking into account those that have external organs that are ambiguous, and not even counting people who could have been raised male, yet possess ovaries, or those who have a different sort of intrasexed condition where their bodies produce hormones contrary to the sex they have been conditioned to think that they were all their lives.


Arbitrarily assigning gender assignments to children as infants is much more common than sex change operations (later in life), and the fact that there is a good chance that the guess as to what sex to assign in ambiguous circumstances could be wrong and potentially curse someone to feel that they are trapped in the body of the wrong sex is a completely valid reason why corrective surgery should be an option, and also underscores that this is not necessarily a "mental disorder"
 
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marduc said:
I don't think that if they were actually aware that they were intersexed to some degree they would be flaunting what color their horse was to begin with.

Then there is the problem that it has long been standard procedure to assign a sex shortly after birth, and to surgically enforce this assignment where necessary, and then raise the child according to which sex was arbitrarily assigned (usually assigned as a determination on clitoral/phallic tissue measurements). Many intrasexed children grow up not even being aware that they in fact are intrasexed or were intrasexed at birth.

This is just taking into account those that have external organs that are ambiguous, and not even counting people who could have been raised male, yet possess ovaries, or those who have a different sort of intrasexed condition where their bodies produce hormones contrary to the sex they have been conditioned to think that they were all their lives.


Arbitrarily assigning gender assignments to children as infants is much more common than sex change operations (later in life), and the fact that there is a good chance that the guess as to what sex to assign in ambiguous circumstances could be wrong and potentially curse someone to feel that they are trapped in the body of the wrong sex is a completely valid reason why corrective surgery should be an option, and also underscores that this is not necessarily a "mental disorder"
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the question then becomes: what percentage of those getting sex change surgery were born with physical gender-identification issues?
 
Goshin said:
the question then becomes: what percentage of those getting sex change surgery were born with physical gender-identification issues?
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Which is why I said this in my original post here:

the thing that would be interesting to know is of these people how many of those were actually among the 1 in 2000 that were born with some form of intrasexed condition in the first place.
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:2razz:
 
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:shrug: Let me know if you find out.
 
Goshin said:
:shrug: Let me know if you find out.
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Don't hold your breath waiting for me to provide with an answer then.. but I am sure it does happen, and this part is pure conjecture on my part here, but I bet the percentage would be substantial.

More importantly for this discussion, there is no way the issue can be dismissed as a mental illness.
 
marduc said:
Don't hold your breath waiting for me to provide with an answer then.. but I am sure it does happen, and this part is pure conjecture on my part here, but I bet the percentage would be substantial.

More importantly for this discussion, there is no way the issue can be dismissed as a mental illness.
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I disagree. If a person was born "intrasexed" or hemaphroditic, that is one issue.

If this was not true in a given case, then yes I am inclined to consider this more a fault of the mind than of the body.

(I'm not necessarily saying this surgery should be illegal; I'm just saying I have some reservations about it being done in cases where there was no physical abnormality at birth.)
 
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American said:
Why don't you head down to the religious forum, you can hold a prayer meetin' down there? Why do you need to hijack this thread?
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What? You're the one turning this into a religious issue. Stoning is not exclusive to ignorant religious people thousands of years ago. :doh
 
jamesrage said:
No one needs a degree to state the obvious. If you think you need a degree to state the obvious then no amount of education is going to help you. Its like saying you need a degree to say that the earth goes around the sun or that the price of gas sometimes sucks.
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James, your "opinion" is not the "obvious" to everyone else.
 
Its free on the NHS:)
 
jamesrage said:
No one needs a degree to state the obvious. If you think you need a degree to state the obvious then no amount of education is going to help you. Its like saying you need a degree to say that the earth goes around the sun or that the price of gas sometimes sucks.
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You would be amazed at some of the things that I have read. I think i'll send you a PM of an example. I'd do it here but it's from another forum...a forum filled with certifiable nutjobs.
 
jamesrage said:
Those who take advantage of mentally ill people,
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Everything after this is irrelevant gobblty-gook, stemming from an inaccurate premise. One who desires a sex change is not mentally ill because of that desire.
 
jamesrage said:
No one needs a degree to state the obvious.
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I have one. And I can tell you, quite unequivocally, that you do not know the first thing about diagnosing mental illness, and do not know the first thing about understanding this issue.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I have one.
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That degree is irrelevant,especially since it is obvious that these people are insane.


And I can tell you, quite unequivocally, that you do not know the first thing about diagnosing mental illness, and do not know the first thing about understanding this issue.
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Again sane people do not think they are something different than what they physically are. These people are mentally ill, it is literally a man who thinks is a woman trapped in a man's body or a woman who thinks she is a man trapped in a woman's body, that is not normal or mentally sane in any society. this is no different than someone with multiple personality disorders or someone who thinks he is a duck trapped in a man's body. If these people were born with both functioning male and female sex organs then it would be a physical issue and not a mental issue.


Everything after this is irrelevant gobblty-gook, stemming from an inaccurate premise. One who desires a sex change is not mentally ill because of that desire.
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They are seeking to have their organs removed or modified and implants added to look like those of the opposite gender because of their mental illness that they think they are a gender they really are not. They think somehow a doctor sticking a fake vagina and fake boobs on a man or a fake penis on a woman is some how a cure. It is not a cure, it is nothing more than a band aid meant to ignore the actual problem and so the quack does not have to do his job to cure that person of their mental disorder.
 
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EgoffTib said:
James, your "opinion" is not the "obvious" to everyone else.
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Yes that is because they either because they lack common sense or they let their pro-homosexual bigotry effect their opinion on this matter.
 
jamesrage said:
That degree is irrelevant,especially since it is obvious that these people are insane.
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I'm thinking it's only obvious to you and the minority of people who think like you. Regardless, your assessment, no matter how well-informed you think it is, does not match up to having a degree and/or the expertise needed to diagnose someone as mentally ill. You are expressing your personal opinion, which still doesn't hold any water.

Again sane people do not think they are something different than what they physically are. These people are mentally ill, it is literally a man who thinks is a woman trapped in a man's body or a woman who thinks she is a man trapped in a woman's body, that is not normal or mentally sane in any society. this is no different than someone with multiple personality disorders or someone who thinks he is a duck trapped in a man's body. If these people were born with both functioning male and female sex organs then it would be a physical issue and not a mental issue.
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And why is that so far fetched? Do you think genetics are perfect and that we all come out exactly how we are supposed to be? Something tells me you haven't met anybody who is transgendered because you are generalizing a lot here.

They are seeking to have their organs removed or modified and implants added to look like those of the opposite gender because of their mental illness that they think they are a gender they really are not. They think somehow a doctor sticking a fake vagina and fake boobs on a man or a fake penis on a woman is some how a cure. It is not a cure, it is nothing more than a band aid meant to ignore the actual problem and so the quack does not have to do his job to cure that person of their mental disorder.
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And all of this, like the rest of your arguments, can be disregarded simply because you are working on the assumption that you are right about them being mentally ill. This assertion is based on nothing more than your personal opinion which....nope.. it still doesn't hold any water. Try again.
 
jamesrage said:
Yes that is because they either because they lack common sense or they let their pro-homosexual bigotry effect their opinion on this matter.
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I think the fact that you obviously haven't met any transgendered individuals, not to mention your ignorant views on homosexuality have an effect on your opinion in this matter. So yeah, I certainly wouldn't look to you to make a reasonable and informed assertion on this issue.
 
The Baron said:
I could never understand how doctors could do this.

If you have someone with a perfectly healthy and functioning physical body and has a mind telling them that they are the wrong sex it seems to me that the problem is not with the body but with the mind.

It seems to me that you would then want to treat the mind with counseling, therapy, etc. and not alter the body.

But doctors have decided to ignore the root-cause of the problem (the mind) and mutilate what is healthy and normal (the body).

Apparently all of the money is in performing the surgery.
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The educational/entertaining TV stations (Discovery, NatGeo,History) did have a very interesting series on this phenomena of human development.
Things go "wrong"..
Thus we end up with one sex in the body and the opposite in the mind.
That is the problem, NOT the mind.
If the mind could be changed to agree with the body, great....
But I do not see how that is possible..
Go for the change, enjoy life.
Ignore what lesser people "think".
 
jamesrage said:
Yes that is because they either because they lack common sense or they let their pro-homosexual bigotry effect their opinion on this matter.
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Oh yes, that's it, we are all dumb and reverse bigots. Yes, that makes alot more sense than just you are making inaccurate assumptions.

I do like the "pro-homosexual bigot" line though, I might have to steal that.
 
I don't think it should be illegal. However I do think at a certain point in the not too distant future it would behoove us as a society to start holding drs. who take advantage of the mentally ill accountable. Things like Michael Jackson's face should never happen. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it for money. There's a fine line between helping a person feel better about their body, make their body more workable for them, etc vs helping a mentally ill masochist mutilate themselves. There are ethics involved and seeing some of the stuff drs. have been paid to do to folks is more than enough evidence that the dollar is king and ethics have gone out the window.
 
jamesrage said:
Yes that is because they either because they lack common sense or they let their pro-homosexual bigotry effect their opinion on this matter.
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How do you expect to be taken seriously with rhetoric like this?
 
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