View Poll Results: Should getting a sex change be legal?

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  • Yes, it should be legal

    96 80.67%
  • No, it should be illegal

    20 16.81%
  • I don't know

    3 2.52%
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Thread: Should getting a sex change be legal?

  1. #101
    Androgyne
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    So you admit that the limit for you is just allowing people to go to corrupt doctors so they can pretend to be a gender they are not? If you allow someone to go to a corrupt doctor to modify some body parts or add implants so that person can pretend to be a gender they are not then why not let someone go to a doctor so they can pretend to be a species they are not? Both are either absurd or neither are absurd. A man who thinks he is a woman trapped in a man's body is no different and is just as insane as a person who thinks they are a tiger,duck or cat trapped in man's body.
    Who is corrupting doctors? People are unhappy with the way they are, and they pay a doctor to fix them. What is the big deal? And I think both you and I should consider ourselves fortunate for the fact that we didn't grow up with gender confusion like transgendered people. I imagine you would be whistling a different tune of that were the case. And no, your assertion is far more insane just as the idiotic argument about gay marriage is.

    Little Timmy can wear fake dog ears, a fake fur coat and a tail and have everyone in his school call him spot until he is old enough to get to get some surgeries to modify his body parts and add implants to make it more physical. WHy should that be any more or less ridiculous than allowing little Nicholas to go to school wearing a dress and having everyone call him Nicole until he is old enough to get some surgeries(yes this is actually happening in real life)?
    Personally, I have no problem with people who wish to modify their bodies this way. There already are people who do. For example:



    I have no problem with people who want to do stuff like that. It's their body and it should be their choice. However, your comparison between people who modify their bodies this way and people who are transgendered is absurd and ignorant.

  2. #102
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Who is corrupting doctors?
    Those who take advantage of mentally ill people, this is almost the the same as mentally healthy adult sexually taking advantage of a minor or an adult with a mentality of a 5 year old.


    People are unhappy with the way they are, and they pay a doctor to fix them. What is the big deal?

    They are not fixed, a man pretending to be a woman is still a man even though a currupt doctor gave him a fake vagina and fake breast. Its the equivalent of giving someone with multiple personality disorders multiple IDs, birth certificates and SS cards and calling them cured or gluing feathers,fake wings and bill on someone claiming to be a duck and calling them cured. They are still mentally ill. Facilitating a mental illness is not a cure.




    I have no problem with people who want to do stuff like that. It's their body and it should be their choice. However, your comparison between people who modify their bodies this way and people who are transgendered is absurd and ignorant.
    Again no it is not absurd or ignorant. What is absurd is to sit there and claim its okay for a man to get surgery so he can pretend to woman or for a man to get surgery to pretend to be a different species. You can't have it it both ways, either both are absurd and ignorant or neither are because in both cases it is a mentally ill people getting surgery and taking drugs or hormones to help them carry out a delusion and expecting the state to call them what ever gender or species they want to pretend to be.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #103
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Those who take advantage of mentally ill people, this is almost the the same as mentally healthy adult sexually taking advantage of a minor or an adult with a mentality of a 5 year old.
    And yet you have no proof, nor are you qualified to call these people mentally ill.

    They are not fixed, a man pretending to be a woman is still a man even though a currupt doctor gave him a fake vagina and fake breast. Its the equivalent of giving someone with multiple personality disorders multiple IDs, birth certificates and SS cards and calling them cured or gluing feathers,fake wings and bill on someone claiming to be a duck and calling them cured. They are still mentally ill. Facilitating a mental illness is not a cure.
    Call it what you want. They are finally happy and comfortable in their own skin. I say, more power to them.


    Again no it is not absurd or ignorant. What is absurd is to sit there and claim its okay for a man to get surgery so he can pretend to woman or for a man to get surgery to pretend to be a different species. You can't have it it both ways, either both are absurd and ignorant or neither are because in both cases it is a mentally ill people getting surgery and taking drugs or hormones to help them carry out a delusion and expecting the state to call them what ever gender or species they want to pretend to be.
    Have you ever met or spoken to someone who has had a sex change operation? I'm guessing no. Considering this, you really have no idea what kind of people they are, what is going through their head when they do this, etc. Nor do you have the expertise to assert that they are mentally ill. As much as I respect your opinion on the matter, it holds very little water.

  4. #104
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    And yet you have no proof, nor are you qualified to call these people mentally ill.
    No one needs a degree to state the obvious. If you think you need a degree to state the obvious then no amount of education is going to help you. Its like saying you need a degree to say that the earth goes around the sun or that the price of gas sometimes sucks.

    Call it what you want. They are finally happy and comfortable in their own skin. I say, more power to them.
    Being happy or unhappy is irrelevant in whether or not someone is sane or insane.

    Have you ever met or spoken to someone who has had a sex change operation? I'm guessing no.

    Irrelevant. Do you need to know a thief to state that stealing is a crime? Do you need to know a politician to say that you do not like or like a politician's beliefs? Do you need to know a code pink member to know that they are anti-military? Do you need to go sky diving to know that sky diving is dangerous? Do you need to go riding on the hood of a car while your buddy is stoned of his ass driving the car to know that riding on the hood of a car is dangerous? Do you need to smoke a lot of marijuana to know that smoking marijuana can get you stone?

    Considering this, you really have no idea what kind of people they are, what is going through their head when they do this, etc. Nor do you have the expertise to assert that they are mentally ill.

    Again you do not need a degree to state the obvious, if you think you do then no amount of education in the world is going to help you with common sense. Normal sane people do not think they are the wrong gender, normal sane people do not mutilate or have themselves modified just so they can pretend to be something they are not. Sticking a fake vagina and fake breast on a man does not make him a woman nor is it a cure. It just a band aid and greedy doctors lining their pockets by taking advantage of a mentally ill person.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  5. #105
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Something that seems to be overlooked here in all this talk of "its a mental disorder" is the fact that something like 1 in every 2000 people are born intersexed (which is entirely physical) and then need to either live their life in a between sexed limbo, or have had a sex arbitrarily assigned to them, many times involving surgical manipulation to assign them a "proper" gender.

    Those who seek out sex changes and those who feel they are "in the body of the wrong sex" are quite few and far between, the thing that would be interesting to know is of these people how many of those were actually among the 1 in 2000 that were born with some form of intrasexed condition in the first place.

    If someone was actually born with both male and female physical characteristics, that is a horse of a different color imo, because there is an obvious and physiological cause to their malady.

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  6. #106
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If someone was actually born with both male and female physical characteristics, that is a horse of a different color imo, because there is an obvious and physiological cause to their malady.
    I don't think that if they were actually aware that they were intersexed to some degree they would be flaunting what color their horse was to begin with.

    Then there is the problem that it has long been standard procedure to assign a sex shortly after birth, and to surgically enforce this assignment where necessary, and then raise the child according to which sex was arbitrarily assigned (usually assigned as a determination on clitoral/phallic tissue measurements). Many intrasexed children grow up not even being aware that they in fact are intrasexed or were intrasexed at birth.

    This is just taking into account those that have external organs that are ambiguous, and not even counting people who could have been raised male, yet possess ovaries, or those who have a different sort of intrasexed condition where their bodies produce hormones contrary to the sex they have been conditioned to think that they were all their lives.


    Arbitrarily assigning gender assignments to children as infants is much more common than sex change operations (later in life), and the fact that there is a good chance that the guess as to what sex to assign in ambiguous circumstances could be wrong and potentially curse someone to feel that they are trapped in the body of the wrong sex is a completely valid reason why corrective surgery should be an option, and also underscores that this is not necessarily a "mental disorder"
    Last edited by marduc; 09-30-09 at 11:24 PM.

  7. #107
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I don't think that if they were actually aware that they were intersexed to some degree they would be flaunting what color their horse was to begin with.

    Then there is the problem that it has long been standard procedure to assign a sex shortly after birth, and to surgically enforce this assignment where necessary, and then raise the child according to which sex was arbitrarily assigned (usually assigned as a determination on clitoral/phallic tissue measurements). Many intrasexed children grow up not even being aware that they in fact are intrasexed or were intrasexed at birth.

    This is just taking into account those that have external organs that are ambiguous, and not even counting people who could have been raised male, yet possess ovaries, or those who have a different sort of intrasexed condition where their bodies produce hormones contrary to the sex they have been conditioned to think that they were all their lives.


    Arbitrarily assigning gender assignments to children as infants is much more common than sex change operations (later in life), and the fact that there is a good chance that the guess as to what sex to assign in ambiguous circumstances could be wrong and potentially curse someone to feel that they are trapped in the body of the wrong sex is a completely valid reason why corrective surgery should be an option, and also underscores that this is not necessarily a "mental disorder"

    the question then becomes: what percentage of those getting sex change surgery were born with physical gender-identification issues?

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  8. #108
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    the question then becomes: what percentage of those getting sex change surgery were born with physical gender-identification issues?
    Which is why I said this in my original post here:

    the thing that would be interesting to know is of these people how many of those were actually among the 1 in 2000 that were born with some form of intrasexed condition in the first place.
    Last edited by marduc; 09-30-09 at 11:38 PM.

  9. #109
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Let me know if you find out.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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  10. #110
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    Re: Should getting a sex change be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Let me know if you find out.
    Don't hold your breath waiting for me to provide with an answer then.. but I am sure it does happen, and this part is pure conjecture on my part here, but I bet the percentage would be substantial.

    More importantly for this discussion, there is no way the issue can be dismissed as a mental illness.

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