View Poll Results: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

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  • The President-Civilian Control

    26 52.00%
  • The Joint Chiefs-The Military Professionals

    0 0%
  • The President, but the military should decide battlefield tactics.

    24 48.00%
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Thread: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

  1. #161
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It involves the chain of command. Are you now saying that since the president is a civilian, he can bypass military regulations at will?
    No it does not. He is the supreme authority period. Being in the military I figure you should know this.

    The president can give any lawful order he wishes. No one is talking about ridicules fallacy situations with the president ordering people to jump in a fly helicopters without training or any such nonsense. That is what you are trying to make it about, and to be honest that argument is just blowing of smoke.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-06-09 at 11:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  2. #162
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    OK...You are an Army private on fire watch & the POTUS comes up to you & orders you to chew some gum..... & then stick it onto the tip of your nose for the balance of your watch.
    I would refuse on the grounds that the order isn't pertinent to my mission, would distract me from my watch and would be personally demeaning to me, therefore it's an unlawful order.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No it does not. He is the supreme authority period. Being in the military I figure you should know this.

    The president can give any lawful order he wishes. No one is talking about ridicules fallacy situations with the president ordering people to jump in a fly helicopters without training or any such nonsense. That is what you are trying to make it about, and to be honest that argument is just blowing of smoke.

    That's right, any lawful order. An order that violates regulations isn't a lawful order. An order that doesn't go through the proper channels could possibly be an unlawful order and therefore a soldier wouldn't be obligated to obey such an order.

    I think the confusion that exists among my opponents in this debate, is that they are confused about what constitutes an unlawful order. AS I've said before, any order that violates regulations, creates undue risk, or violates established doctrine, can be an unlawful order.

    A good example of would be thepresident ordering soldiers not to toss a grenade into a room, before entering the room to clear it, because of the risk of collateral damage. That would be an unlawful order, because it violates combat doctrine, creates undue risk and soldiers could either ignore the order and throw grenades anyway, or use other means, besides tactical entry, to clear a building.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #163
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's right, any lawful order. An order that violates regulations isn't a lawful order. An order that doesn't go through the proper channels could possibly be an unlawful order and therefore a soldier wouldn't be obligated to obey such an order.

    I think the confusion that exists among my opponents in this debate, is that they are confused about what constitutes an unlawful order. AS I've said before, any order that violates regulations, creates undue risk, or violates established doctrine, can be an unlawful order.

    A good example of would be thepresident ordering soldiers not to toss a grenade into a room, before entering the room to clear it, because of the risk of collateral damage. That would be an unlawful order, because it violates combat doctrine, creates undue risk and soldiers could either ignore the order and throw grenades anyway, or use other means, besides tactical entry, to clear a building.
    No.

    The confusion is you don't want to admit your premise was flawed so you tried to change the goal post. We understand perfectly you are dodging.

    Here is your 2nd statement in this thread...

    "The military can't be micro-managed by the president, especially a president that has zero military experience, or education." - apdst

    It has been proved one hundred times over he can do this. This has nothing to do with it being unlawful, or the President giving unlawful orders.

    Your original assertion about the field commander can't even be defended.

    I would also like to point out military experience has nothing to do with it. So trying to disparage a President by his military service or lack there of is again bull****.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 10-07-09 at 01:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #164
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I would refuse on the grounds that the order isn't pertinent to my mission, would distract me from my watch and would be personally demeaning to me, therefore it's an unlawful order.

    Well good for you! (slaps the cuffs on apdst)..Tell it to the judge

    "You have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney and to have an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you at no cost. During any questioning, you may decide at any time to exercise these rights, not answer any questions, or make any statements......... "

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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Well good for you! (slaps the cuffs on apdst)..Tell it to the judge

    "You have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney and to have an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided to you at no cost. During any questioning, you may decide at any time to exercise these rights, not answer any questions, or make any statements......... "
    He is right. That would be an illegal order and it can be refused under the UCMJ.

    Please don't start with unreasonable assertions. Not all orders need to be followed blindly as some are possibly illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #166
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    He is right. That would be an illegal order and it can be refused under the UCMJ.

    Please don't start with unreasonable assertions. Not all orders need to be followed blindly as some are possibly illegal.
    Why would that order be illegal? (silly..yes...Illegal??...what law would that order be violating?)
    Last edited by Devil505; 10-07-09 at 09:36 AM.

  7. #167
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Here's an idea, hope it hasn't been mentioned before.

    How about the Soldiers have the final say on military matters. Not the officers, but the actual soldiers, since they are the ones that will fight, be injured, or worse, die.

    Not supporting this idea, but just throwing it out there.

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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by George VI View Post
    Here's an idea, hope it hasn't been mentioned before.

    How about the Soldiers have the final say on military matters. Not the officers, but the actual soldiers, since they are the ones that will fight, be injured, or worse, die.

    Not supporting this idea, but just throwing it out there.
    So basically.....an armed, leaderless gang eh?..Sounds great!

  9. #169
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by George VI View Post
    Here's an idea, hope it hasn't been mentioned before.

    How about the Soldiers have the final say on military matters. Not the officers, but the actual soldiers, since they are the ones that will fight, be injured, or worse, die.

    Not supporting this idea, but just throwing it out there.
    This won't really work very well. Any good servicemember knows that this is a bad idea. There are too many differences in opinions among servicemen and women on what should be done and how to do it when it comes to overall strategies.

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  10. #170
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Why would that order be illegal? (silly..yes...Illegal??...what law would that order be violating?)
    An order doesn't neccessarily have to violate the law to be illegal. In the service illegal/unlawful orders have a very broad meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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