View Poll Results: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

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  • The President-Civilian Control

    26 52.00%
  • The Joint Chiefs-The Military Professionals

    0 0%
  • The President, but the military should decide battlefield tactics.

    24 48.00%
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Thread: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

  1. #141
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, there are some orders the President cannot directly issue to military personnel due to his lack of knowledge. I know that when Pres. Bush was aboard our ship, he was going to tour the Reactor spaces. Including the reactor control space. The personnel who directly operate the reactors were informed that, due to reactor safety regulations, the President could not touch the controls for the reactor, nor could he order the personnel to do anything with those controls without express permission from the officer in charge. The President does not have the knowledge of how our reactors operate and could cause a major problem.
    That would fall under the category of unlawful order. He still could have ordered you to hold his coat, just not mess with the reactor. That is nothing at all like what aspdt is talking about, and has zero to do with the chain of command.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That would fall under the category of unlawful order. He still could have ordered you to hold his coat, just not mess with the reactor. That is nothing at all like what aspdt is talking about, and has zero to do with the chain of command.
    No, he couldn't have ordered you to hold his coat. It's illegal for superiors to order a soldier to perform a personal favor. Just like a general can't order you to wash his car, the president can't order you hold his coat. It would be a violation of military regulations and therefore, and unlawful order.
    Last edited by apdst; 10-05-09 at 07:59 PM.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That would fall under the category of unlawful order. He still could have ordered you to hold his coat, just not mess with the reactor. That is nothing at all like what aspdt is talking about, and has zero to do with the chain of command.
    No, actually this is still wrong. He could not break the chain of command, because he did not hold positional authority. Even if it was Pres. Jimmy Carter, who was a Nuke officer, and had been through Nuke school, and knew how the reactors operate, any of his orders concerning the operation of the reactor would have to go through the officer in charge. It's referred to as positional authority.
    A military guard has the authority to stop and detain even the President if he has been given orders that no one can enter his space. It is one of our general orders of a sentry. In fact, if a guard was given that order and still allowed the President to go through without checking to ensure clearance, the guard could then face a court martial.

    And actually, due to the specific nature of watchstanding and the fact that your attention should be on whatever you are watching, he still couldn't have ordered the watchstander to hold his coat or pretty much anything else while the watchstander was on watch.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 10-05-09 at 08:09 PM. Reason: more info to add
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  4. #144
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, actually this is still wrong. He could not break the chain of command, because he did not hold positional authority. Even if it was Pres. Jimmy Carter, who was a Nuke officer, and had been through Nuke school, and knew how the reactors operate, any of his orders concerning the operation of the reactor would have to go through the officer in charge. It's referred to as positional authority.
    A military guard has the authority to stop and detain even the President if he has been given orders that no one can enter his space. It is one of our general orders of a sentry. In fact, if a guard was given that order and still allowed the President to go through without checking to ensure clearance, the guard could then face a court martial.
    Positional Authority is what gives an MP the authority to write the president a speeding ticket and the president can't pull rank on the issueing MP.


    And actually, due to the specific nature of watchstanding and the fact that your attention should be on whatever you are watching, he still couldn't have ordered the watchstander to hold his coat or pretty much anything else while the watchstander was on watch.
    The president doesn't have the authority to relieve a watch post and a soldier who gives into the president's unlawful order to quit his post would be in violation of standing general orders and therefore subject to court martial.
    Last edited by apdst; 10-05-09 at 08:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #145
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Very good points TOJ.
    What's TOJ?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #146
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, actually this is still wrong. He could not break the chain of command, because he did not hold positional authority. Even if it was Pres. Jimmy Carter, who was a Nuke officer, and had been through Nuke school, and knew how the reactors operate, any of his orders concerning the operation of the reactor would have to go through the officer in charge. It's referred to as positional authority.
    A military guard has the authority to stop and detain even the President if he has been given orders that no one can enter his space. It is one of our general orders of a sentry. In fact, if a guard was given that order and still allowed the President to go through without checking to ensure clearance, the guard could then face a court martial.

    And actually, due to the specific nature of watchstanding and the fact that your attention should be on whatever you are watching, he still couldn't have ordered the watchstander to hold his coat or pretty much anything else while the watchstander was on watch.
    You are not quite accurate. The chain of command can and is "broken" every say. Orders do not have to go through every step of the chain to be legal. The chain of command is about who has authority, and order of flow. However, if some one not directly above you in the chain gives you an order, it is still an order that has to be obeyed.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #147
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What's TOJ?
    I forgot who was posting. Sue me!...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #148
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    However, if some one not directly above you in the chain gives you an order, it is still an order that has to be obeyed.

    It depends on the order, but generally speaking, that's incorrect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #149
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I forgot who was posting. Sue me!...
    lol, no problem
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #150
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    Re: Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You are not quite accurate. The chain of command can and is "broken" every say. Orders do not have to go through every step of the chain to be legal. The chain of command is about who has authority, and order of flow. However, if some one not directly above you in the chain gives you an order, it is still an order that has to be obeyed.
    Not while the person is on watch. Here are the eleven general orders of a sentry (a watchstander is a sentry):


    1. To take charge of this post and all government property in view.

    2. To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert, and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.

    3. To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.

    4. To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guard house than my own.

    5. To quit my post only when properly relieved.

    6. To receive, obey and pass on to the sentry who relieves me, all orders from the Commanding Officer, Command Duty Officer, Officer of the Deck, and Officers and Petty Officers of the Watch only.

    7. To talk to no one except in the line of duty.

    8. To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.

    9. To call the Officer of the Deck in any case not covered by instructions.

    10. To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

    11. To be especially watchful at night, and, during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.

    Eleven General Orders
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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