View Poll Results: Should the poor be given free money?

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  • No, not at all

    17 37.78%
  • Yes, but only the poorest of the poor

    6 13.33%
  • Yes, everyone below the poverty line

    10 22.22%
  • Other

    12 26.67%
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Thread: Welfare for the Poor

  1. #21
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I cannot lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that allows the government to spend from the public treasury for the sake of charity.
    The establishment of federal welfare programs is neither opposed to the original intent of the Founding Fathers nor an addition of a new doctrine entirely unconsidered by them. They had an interest in promoting equality (or at least equity), but simply did not envision the detriment that large-scale industrialization (combined with the utilization of wage labor and the extraction of surplus value), would pose to that end. Had they been completely aware of it, they would have advocated federal welfare programs themselves. For instance, we can look to Alexander Hamilton's Reports of the Secretary of the Treasury on the Subject of Manufactures for an illustration of the manner in which they realized that government intervention (namely through the protection of infant industries), is able to uphold economic stability.

    We might also look to the additional factor of there being a compelling government interest in upholding economic stability, and the role of welfare in maintaining the physical efficiency of the workforce and therefore sustaining capitalism.

  2. #22
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Every existing capitalist economy has utilized state protectionism and interventionism to some degree, with all remaining fundamentally capitalist if the three aforementioned elements were intact. That you have a utopian fantasy about the theoretical abstraction of a capitalist "free market" does nothing to alter this, and if you want to maintain that capitalism has never existed, feel free to do so.
    Then I guess that there has never been a capitalist nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanitas View Post
    Like he said, capitalism revolved around the idea of resource allocation. Creating a safety net for those below the poverty line isn't automatically a socialist idea - especially when it's incorporated in a capitalist nation.
    So the government deciding where resources should be allocated instead of private interests is a capitalist notion? Crazy, I thought it was the exact opposite.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #23
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I cannot lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that allows the government to spend from the public treasury for the sake of charity.
    Can't money be spent from the public treasury on whatever the hell Congress wants? I mean, the Constitution mentions that Congress can spend money, but it doesn't give any limits to what Congress can spend money on, as far as I know.

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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Then I guess that there has never been a capitalist nation.
    Then it sounds like you have little basis for claiming that the existing technology of the developed world was created by capitalism, as rightists are prone to do. What hasn't existed and will never exist is your "pure capitalism." Real capitalism has and continues to exist and malfunction in a large variety of ways, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So the government deciding where resources should be allocated instead of private interests is a capitalist notion? Crazy, I thought it was the exact opposite.
    No one referred to government dictate as an example of traditional capitalism. It's true that the same hierarchical framework that capitalism involves is restored in such an arrangement, with an oligopolistic arrangement of an elite few resource controllers determining how they will be allocated in both instances. But we would better label a command economy "state capitalist" in nature and make the necessary distinction.

  5. #25
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Can't money be spent from the public treasury on whatever the hell Congress wants? I mean, the Constitution mentions that Congress can spend money, but it doesn't give any limits to what Congress can spend money on, as far as I know.
    Congress thinks it can spend money on whatever it wants...or more like pretends it can.

    The Founders and most of our early Presidents didn't think so.

    See Article I Section 8.

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  6. #26
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Then it sounds like you have little basis for claiming that the existing technology of the developed world was created by capitalism, as rightists are prone to do. What hasn't existed and will never exist is your "pure capitalism." Real capitalism has and continues to exist and malfunction in a large variety of ways, however.
    No, but countries have been successful when they try to emulate capitalism and respect the laws of supply and demand.

    No one referred to government dictate as an example of traditional capitalism. It's true that the same hierarchical framework that capitalism involves is restored in such an arrangement, with an oligopolistic arrangement of an elite few resource controllers determining how they will be allocated in both instances. But we would better label a command economy "state capitalist" in nature and make the necessary distinction.
    Why do you ignore the fluidity of the classes in a capitalist nation (or a nation that tries to emulate capitalism)?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    No, but countries have been successful when they try to emulate capitalism and respect the laws of supply and demand.
    Capitalism cannot "respect" the laws of supply and demand to any significant extent compared to a market socialist economy because of the prevalence of negative externalities, monopolistic or oligopolistic market power, and asymmetric information in the capitalist economy. Those capitalist nations that are successful, however, are those that introduce heavy government intervention and regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Why do you ignore the fluidity of the classes in a capitalist nation (or a nation that tries to emulate capitalism)?
    I'm aware of the constrictions on social mobility that exist in all capitalist economies, and are especially pervasive in the U.S. I can't ignore that.

  8. #28
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Capitalism cannot "respect" the laws of supply and demand to any significant extent compared to a market socialist economy because of the prevalence of negative externalities, monopolistic or oligopolistic market power, and asymmetric information in the capitalist economy. Those capitalist nations that are successful, however, are those that introduce heavy government intervention and regulation.
    The US before Teddy Roosevelt was had heavy government intervention and regulation?

    I'm aware of the constrictions on social mobility that exist in all capitalist economies, and are especially pervasive in the U.S. I can't ignore that.
    No, you're acting as though there is absolutely no social mobility in capitalist nations and you know that's not true.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #29
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    First I do not mind helping persons that truely need help and are willing to help themselves.

    I do not feel however that it is the Federal governments place to tax and redistribute.

    There are so so many things wrong with how we "help" the less fortunate. I absolutly hate welfare in its current form. Just last week I was talking to a man who was angry because he could not purchase energy drinks with his food stamps.

    There are so many things that I think should be changed. So many in fact that I dont care to list them all, so I will just sum it up as best I can. If you are recieveing public aid you should not have any luxury items/services period. You should be forced to work (if able) no matter how crappy the job or be cut off.

    Consider this, those that we consider impoverished here in the US are wealthier then at least 70% of the world population.

  10. #30
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The US before Teddy Roosevelt was had heavy government intervention and regulation?
    Of course. Apart from my aforementioned reference to ever-present facets such as Hamilton's early advocacy of the infant industries argument in the eighteenth century, the U.S. was dependent on significant protectionism during the nineteenth century for the purpose of infant industry development.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    No, you're acting as though there is absolutely no social mobility in capitalist nations and you know that's not true.
    I've noted that there's significant constrictions on social mobility that are exacerbated by the fact that the majority of aggregate wealth accumulation finds its basis in intergenerational transfers, as noted by Summers and Kotlikoff.

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