View Poll Results: Should the poor be given free money?

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  • No, not at all

    17 37.78%
  • Yes, but only the poorest of the poor

    6 13.33%
  • Yes, everyone below the poverty line

    10 22.22%
  • Other

    12 26.67%
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Thread: Welfare for the Poor

  1. #11
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    I have no problem with welfare as long as it is used only as a helping hand and not as some means for someone to avoid getting a job. Since welfare is supposed to be a helping there should be some program that helps those on welfare get jobs or get a trade school education in case picking fruits and vegetables or a job at McDonalds can not help provide a means of financial self sufficiency that is able to provide for the family. There should be no extra money for someone popping out an extra child, if that person can not afford to take of that extra child then that individual should either give that child to a relative or give it up for adoption(the state or a nice married couple can take care of that child). I have known people in the past who used welfare as a means to avoid getting a job. There should also be some stipulations for being on welfare such as drug test, no cigarettes and no alcohol because after all if you do not have the ability to provide for yourself and kids then you have absolutely no business doing any recreational drug regardless if it is illegal or legal. There should be no simply just handing someone a check to do what ever the hell they want with it. IF your welfare benefits are to be used to pay bills then that money should be wired straight from the tax payers to the utility companies and if you need food it should be in the form of a access card requiring ID to be used with it.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 09-26-09 at 07:46 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    There's a need to challenge the prevailing misconceptions about the welfare state and its role in the capitalist economy,
    See, there's your first and most important problem. A welfare state cannot exist in a capitalist economy. Once you have a welfare state, you no longer have a capitalist economy, unless you change your definition of capitalism.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #13
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    See, there's your first and most important problem. A welfare state cannot exist in a capitalist economy. Once you have a welfare state, you no longer have a capitalist economy, unless you change your definition of capitalism.
    That's an extremely comical remark. Capitalism necessitates the private ownership of the means of production, market exchange as the primary means of resource allocation, and the existence of wage labor. That you consider the introduction of a substantial welfare state to be an introduction of "socialism" or some other nonsense and a counterproductive force in the capitalist economy rather than a productive one is simply evidence that you're over-reliant on the latest blog post on mises.org, not that it's anything near an economically rational position.

  4. #14
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's an extremely comical remark. Capitalism necessitates the private ownership of the means of production, market exchange as the primary means of resource allocation, and the existence of wage labor. That you consider the introduction of a substantial welfare state to be an introduction of "socialism" or some other nonsense and a counterproductive force in the capitalist economy rather than a productive one is simply evidence that you're over-reliant on the latest blog post on mises.org, not that it's anything near an economically rational position.
    I didn't claim that it's counterproductive (though I do believe it is). All I said is that it cannot be a part of a capitalist economy.

    Btw, quit trolling.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I didn't claim that it's counterproductive (though I do believe it is). All I said is that it cannot be a part of a capitalist economy.

    Btw, quit trolling.
    Thoroughly explaining the role of the welfare state in the capitalist economy and linking to supporting empirical research isn't trolling; dropping one-liners without supporting arguments or evidence is.

  6. #16
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    You're not debunking my claim that the existence of a welfare state automatically invalidates the claim that you have a capitalist economy.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #17
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    My money should not be given out to others without my permission. But here is where I am REALLY angry. We can have a debate about whether or not we should be forced to help out the poor, but helping out the rich? We are being forced to do this too. Look at all the bailouts, and look at all the rich people who made out like bandits because of it. While we can have an honest debate about helping the poor, giving money to the rich is just damn immoral, no matter which side of the fence you sit on in this debate. It is absolutely sickening.
    Last edited by danarhea; 09-26-09 at 08:06 PM.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    I cannot lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, that allows the government to spend from the public treasury for the sake of charity.


    Welfare, if done at all, should be done at the state level. The Fedgov has no such mandate, no such authority.

    If done at the State level, assuming the State Constitution allows or mandates such a thing, and the People of the State want it done, I personally would support it only under the following conditions:

    1. Subsistence payments to those who are verifiably disabled and literally unable to support themselves. This would include the very elderly and Social Insecurity would be subsumed into this State program, and ended at the Fed level.
    2. A temporary helping-hand... we'll give you enough to barely live on and help you get job retraining at tech college for two years, so that you can get on your feet and be self-supporting...but we will do this only ONCE in a lifetime for any given individual, after that you're on your own.

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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You're not debunking my claim that the existence of a welfare state automatically invalidates the claim that you have a capitalist economy.
    Every existing capitalist economy has utilized state protectionism and interventionism to some degree, with all remaining fundamentally capitalist if the three aforementioned elements were intact. That you have a utopian fantasy about the theoretical abstraction of a capitalist "free market" does nothing to alter this, and if you want to maintain that capitalism has never existed, feel free to do so.

  10. #20
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    Re: Welfare for the Poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    The economic irrationality of that is obvious, considering the existence of diminishing marginal utility.
    You're sound like a true economist.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You're not debunking my claim that the existence of a welfare state automatically invalidates the claim that you have a capitalist economy.
    Actually he thoroughly debunked your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's an extremely comical remark. Capitalism necessitates the private ownership of the means of production, market exchange as the primary means of resource allocation, and the existence of wage labor. That you consider the introduction of a substantial welfare state to be an introduction of "socialism" or some other nonsense and a counterproductive force in the capitalist economy rather than a productive one is simply evidence that you're over-reliant on the latest blog post on mises.org, not that it's anything near an economically rational position.


    Like he said, capitalism revolved around the idea of resource allocation. Creating a safety net for those below the poverty line isn't automatically a socialist idea - especially when it's incorporated in a capitalist nation.
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

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