Are the educational requirements to be a K-12 teacher overkill?

Why is it such a damn mystery why we have to be well educated in our subject matters before teaching?

jamesrage said:

Then what college courses specifically teach these things? How is this any different than a parent who homeschools their child?

Click to expand...

Funny you should ask that. The courses are typically called things like Child Development, Abnormal Psychology, etc. Awesome huh?

jamesrage said:

A kindergarten teacher is nothing more than a overated babysitter or daycare worker.

Click to expand...

Not even close to being accurate.

Anyone can teach children their ABC's and 123's.

Click to expand...

Which means what in terms of this conversation?

Would you demand that the burger flipper at McDonalds go to culinary school or that the cashier at walmart get a degree in calculus?

Click to expand...

I don't recall making that demand. I also don't have any reason to suspect that the burger flipper is placed to supervise the development of my hamburger for 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week, and has all that much to do with the development of my burger.

You are simply being absurd.

Then what college courses specifically teach these things? How is this any different than a parent who homeschools their child?

Click to expand...

How about Child Development, Developmental Psychology, Behavioral Psychology just to start...:shrug:

jallman said:

How about Child Development, Developmental Psychology, Behavioral Psychology just to start...:shrug:

Click to expand...

If there was any shred of evidence at all that taking courses in those subjects makes a person a better teacher, you might have a point. But there isn't.

Yes, some people have that natural ability to be a teacher, but it is absolutely insane to say that being ignorant on the study of education is somehow fine or beneficial for the masses of potential educators.

If you will excuse me, I will purge myself of this awful awful thread filled with people who have absolutely no conception for the complexity of the education system and the demands of the populace upon educators.

Kandahar said:

If there was any shred of evidence at all that taking courses in those subjects makes a person a better teacher, you might have a point. But there isn't.

Click to expand...

I think before you start blowing hot air, you might want to look at what these courses cover and how it relates to teaching. You certainly didn't succeed in making any form of indictment or argument with the blather in the above post.

OxymoronP said:

There is no point arguing with arrogant but ignorant people. I think Rep Franks said it best......................

Click to expand...

IF you think we are ignorant then please educate us and explain to us what college courses specifically help make someone a superior teacher than someone who is not college educated. Algebra class teaches Algebra and Biology classes teach Biology. What college courses specifically make someone a good teacher and how is it relevant to teaching children specific subjects. Is it really that difficult to teach children basically what you learned when you were in their shoes? JUst sitting there calling everyone who disagrees with you an idiot does not prove your point. The fact that have failed to explain exactly how college makes someone a better teacher and what courses are relevant to teaching means that you yourself do not know. Why should going to college mean you get paid more if you can not explain how it is relevant to your job? Should a construction worker get paid more to do the same job as other construction workers just because he went to college?

Fiddytree said:

Yes, some people have that natural ability to be a teacher, but it is absolutely insane to say that being ignorant on the study of education is somehow fine or beneficial for the masses of potential educators.

If you will excuse me, I will purge myself of this awful awful thread filled with people who have absolutely no conception for the complexity of the education system and the demands of the populace upon educators.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I think I am probably going to do the same. Not one post against educated teachers in this thread has generated any form of coherent argument whatsoever.

It's all been a bunch of emotional blathering and hyper retarded drivel from people who have a very limited understanding of what it takes to be a teacher.

Fiddytree said:

Yes, some people have that natural ability to be a teacher, but it is absolutely insane to say that being ignorant on the study of education is somehow fine or beneficial for the masses of potential educators.

Click to expand...

By all means, teachers should still be certified. But K-8 teachers don't need four years of college to do it. Give them a class in Public Speaking, a class on maintaining order in the classroom, and maybe a class on Child Development. And give them an entire year of student teaching. That would be a MUCH better use of their time than what currently exists; the entire certification could be done in a little over a year.

Fiddytree said:

If you will excuse me, I will purge myself of this awful awful thread filled with people who have absolutely no conception for the complexity of the education system and the demands of the populace upon educators.

Click to expand...

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. :2wave:

jallman said:

I think before you start blowing hot air, you might want to look at what these courses cover and how it relates to teaching.

Click to expand...

Completely irrelevant unless you have some statistics that show that more education = better teachers. Otherwise it's just a waste of time.

jallman said:

Thank you. I think I am probably going to do the same. Not one post against educated teachers in this thread has generated any form of coherent argument whatsoever.

Click to expand...

My argument is perfectly coherent: There is not one shred of evidence that more education makes people better teachers. None. Zip. Zero.

jallman said:

Not even close to being accurate.



Which means what in terms of this conversation?

Click to expand...

How is college relevant to being a overrated babysitter/kindergarten teacher/daycare worker?

I don't recall making that demand. I also don't have any reason to suspect that the burger flipper is placed to supervise the development of my hamburger for 6-7 hours a day, 5 days a week, and has all that much to do with the development of my burger.

You are simply being absurd.

Click to expand...

No I am making a point about credential overkill.

How about Child Development, Developmental Psychology, Behavioral Psychology just to start...:shrug:

Click to expand...

If these courses are actually relevant then why not only require only these courses or better yet why not make these junior college or trade school courses? Do homeschoolers require these courses to home school their children?

not overkill

i would make PHD in philosophy, PHD in psychology and PHD in political science all mandatory AT THE SAME TIME for anybody to get close to my little timmy

so you think little girl's vaginas have to be protected against dicks but little kids's minds shouldn't be protected against christian fundamentalists, patriots and other people with no concept of logic ?

i am sorry but i think the mind is more important than a vagina and also easier to harm.

well it doesn't matter. my kids wouldn't go to a public school anyway. you can feed yours to dogs for all i care.

Kandahar said:

My argument is perfectly coherent: There is not one shred of evidence that more education makes people better teachers. None. Zip. Zero.

Click to expand...

care to define what "better teacher" means ?

NEUROSPORT said:

not overkill

i would make PHD in philosophy, PHD in psychology and PHD in political science all mandatory AT THE SAME TIME for anybody to get close to my little timmy

Click to expand...

How are advanced degrees in those subjects relevant to being a teacher?

NEUROSPORT said:

so you think little girl's vaginas have to be protected against dicks

Click to expand...

Umm WHAT?! I hope you didn't mean that the way it sounds, but I'm not really sure how else to interpret it.

NEUROSPORT said:

but little kids's minds shouldn't be protected against christian fundamentalists, patriots and other people with no concept of logic ?

Click to expand...

What does that have to do with whether or not the teacher went to college?

NEUROSPORT said:

i am sorry but i think the mind is more important than a vagina and also easier to harm.

Click to expand...

Again, I really really hope you don't mean that the way it sounds.

NEUROSPORT said:

care to define what "better teacher" means ?

Click to expand...

A teacher whose students exceed the average improvement from one year to the next. For example, the average fourth grader starts the year reading at a 4.0 grade level and ends the year reading at a 5.0 grade level, for an improvement of 25%.

A better teacher would be a fourth grade teacher who improved her students' performance from the beginning to the end of the year by MORE than 25%. A percentage measure is appropriate, because it accounts for the fact that some teachers will have advanced classes whereas others will have remedial classes.

I might not have thought it was overkill in the past, but I keep running into home schooled kids what are far more educated than their peers in public schools.

This choice in the poll: "I do not know/maybe/other" is obviously for graduates of the public schools, and would look good on a T-shirt.

Oftencold said:

I might not have thought it was overkill in the past, but I keep running into home schooled kids what are far more educated than their peers in public schools.

Click to expand...

I think the success of homeschoolers proves that teachers DON'T need advanced education degrees in order to be great teachers. It's much more important to have a teacher who truly connects with students and cares about them.

Kandahar said:

A teacher whose students exceed the average improvement from one year to the next. For example, the average fourth grader starts the year reading at a 4.0 grade level and ends the year reading at a 5.0 grade level, for an improvement of 25%.

A better teacher would be a fourth grade teacher who improved her students' performance from the beginning to the end of the year by MORE than 25%. A percentage measure is appropriate, because it accounts for the fact that some teachers will have advanced classes whereas others will have remedial classes.

Click to expand...

you must be feeling really intelligent living in your little primitive world.

a student is not a pocket calculator but a human being. you can't measure "improvement" in a human being.

you don't need a teacher to improve reading performance - you just need to read for that. you need a teacher to tell you right from wrong.

to even BEGIN to understand what "right" and "wrong" means you will need a PHD in philosophy and to be able to explain it without having the kids jump out of the windows you will need a PHD in psychology

i don't know if ANYBODY is smart enough to teach anybody. i don't believe in teaching. i believe in learning.

Kandahar said:

I think the success of homeschoolers proves that teachers DON'T need advanced education degrees in order to be great teachers. It's much more important to have a teacher who truly connects with students and cares about them.

Click to expand...

no it proves that its most important for the teacher not to be on the payroll of the mafia ( government )

jamesrage said:

Are the educational requirements to be a K-12 teacher overkill?

Click to expand...

Although I am not familiar with all the empirical literature on the topic, I suspect a better question would concern whether K-12 teachers are receiving the optimal mix of courses in college, rather than whether they should be expected to receive a college education. Aside from preparing its graduates with skills that are important to the job market, colleges and universities serve a broader purpose in helping their students develop their cognitive skills; strengthen their ability to understand, interpret, prioritize, and apply information; sharpen their analytical abilities; better prepare them to draw objective conclusions;, and cultivate their interpersonal and leadership skills. My guess is that such general skills would have at least some utility in the field of education/teaching, as they do in the broad range of fields outside of education. IMO, it is difficult to imagine that such general skills would have utility in let's say management but none in teaching even as both areas have problem-solving requirements (though the nature and specifics of the problems differ).

In addition, aside from taking courses in content related to the discipline a teacher might wish to focus on e.g., history, courses that provide skills related to such issues as identifying student distress (academic or non-academic), motivating students, etc., almost certainly have value. Certainly, psychology- and psychiatry-related literature has concluded that various "intervention" strategies have beneficial outcomes that are statistically significant.

On a separate matter, I believe reforms that would allow certain people who have demonstrated a combination of teaching skills and subject expertise in the corporate or scientific fields should not be barred from teaching strictly because they lack an education degree, particularly in fields where there are shortages of teachers e.g., mathematics. But that's a different matter.

Somehow I think we get hung up on the amount of education rather than the content of education. It's what we teach that matters most. I think there are two factors that should control the content, 1) Will it prepare you to be a productive member of society, and 2) Will it prepare you to be a good citizen?

NEUROSPORT said:

you must be feeling really intelligent living in your little primitive world.

Click to expand...

Who is the one making childish attacks here?

NEUROSPORT said:

a student is not a pocket calculator but a human being. you can't measure "improvement" in a human being.

Click to expand...

You most certainly can. If I ask a series of addition questions, it is logical to conclude that a kid who answers 90% of them correctly understands addition better than a kid who answers 70% of them correctly. Maybe there are exceptions - the kid was sick that day, or doesn't test well, or fell asleep during the test, or whatever. But in the aggregate, those exceptions should balance out, and the good teachers will have the results to show.

NEUROSPORT said:

you don't need a teacher to improve reading performance - you just need to read for that. you need a teacher to tell you right from wrong.

Click to expand...

That is a bizarre view of education. Teachers are there to TEACH. Learning "right from wrong" is not something that can be easily taught; it is something that is learned on its own.

The teenage years - not the childhood years - are the formative years for one's moral values. And they damn sure don't come from teachers.

NEUROSPORT said:

to even BEGIN to understand what "right" and "wrong" means you will need a PHD in philosophy and to be able to explain it without having the kids jump out of the windows you will need a PHD in psychology

Click to expand...

Or you can teach them how to add and subtract. Just a thought. :roll:

NEUROSPORT said:

no it proves that its most important for the teacher not to be on the payroll of the mafia ( government )

Click to expand...

Irrelevant to the subject at hand. Thanks for playing. :2wave:

Kandahar said:

You most certainly can. If I ask a series of addition questions, it is logical to conclude that a kid who answers 90% of them correctly understands addition better than a kid who answers 70% of them correctly. Maybe there are exceptions - the kid was sick that day, or doesn't test well, or fell asleep during the test, or whatever. But in the aggregate, those exceptions should balance out, and the good teachers will have the results to show

Click to expand...

you don't know anything about education do you ?

by your criteria places like Russia have the best education. kids there used to be ( when i studied there ) many years ahead of american kids in math and science.

and how is it working out for them ? life expectancy for a russian man is 55 because they all die of alcoholism. all the kids get aborted ( two abortions for every live birth ) and the nation is dying out.

perhaps education is not just about math.

just a thought there for you ...