View Poll Results: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

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Thread: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

  1. #41
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    And if you found a way to avoid those taxes, and were found out? If those who processed your salary refused to make the deduction?

    Oh, there would be stages, legal actions, fines, and so forth. But in the end, and this is vital for everyone to understand about any government, their will is enforced with guns.

    Because you are law-abiding, and like most of us, thoroughly pacified, the gun is not much in evidence. But I assure, you it is there. And in extremis, it would be used to compel your obedience.


    Again, this is fundamental to all government above the level of an extended family group. Ultimately, the compliance of the dissenting members is always enforced with the threat of deadly force. This is why martial law in national emergencies is always an option, and the definition of "emergency" is in the hands of government.
    That might be the case in the US, but in France, if people don't pay their income taxes they get a 10% penalty and if that fails they are taken to court.

    As for the taxes that we pay for health insurance, an employer simply cannot fail to deduct them from our salary. At the end of the month an employee gets a detailed document detailed listing of the earnings and the sums that have been deducted down to the smallest penny.

    Storming someone's house with guns to collect taxes is unheard of here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Actually I have met quite a number of people, including medical providers who have stated emphatically that your system is best avoided.

    So apparently, not everyone is enchanted.

    As a purely subjective aside, I will comment in passing that I saw a television production recently partly set in a British hospital. I kept losing the plot because the setting seemed so antiquated that it was distracting.
    You have met a few people but I actually live in France and I can guarantee you that the French are very happy with their health care system and won't give it up.

    I'm not qualified to speak about the health care system in the UK, it is a unique case in Europe anyway.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    What about your old computer? Could that not be sacrificed for the poor and the sick? What about your dressy clothing? Snack food? Television? Vacation pay? When they die, why not bury family members naked in a sack? Surely, there is no justification for funeral expenses when there are people in need!

    What you are saying, is that your welfare as a productive ember of the population is valueless, and everything you own that in any manner improves your lot above that of the meanest beggar is an affront.

    Myself, I do not believe that, and assert that you should have that benefit of your wages, including the benefit of making reasonable charitable contributions.

    The alternative is to enter into a downward spiral of irreducible feelings of guilt until you lose functionality and are of no use to anyone
    I think you are exaggerating a bit here. The taxes deducted for health care are totally affordable and after the amount is taken out, an employee still has enough income to be able to afford a very comfortable life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Then, you live in a fantasy world, and need to be rescued.
    Thanks for the concern but I'm happily living in a system that I feel comfortable with. Don't worry too much about rescuing me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I have been involved with public health, I am occasionally a jail guard, I am an emergency medical technician, I have taken in homeless persons from the street, and I've watched friends I loved carted off in shackles for their failings.

    I can assure you, that there is a strong contingent of people in any society, perhaps the majority, who given the chance and encouragement, will sink to the lowest level of functionality possible while still maintaining an acceptable level of comfort.

    This is why societies require moral codes, why certain behaviors must cause people to be ostracized, why self respect is thousand of times more vital than self esteem, and why it is self destructive for a free nation to remove the stigma of undesirability from poverty in periods of general plenty.

    I used to have a relative through marriage who was mentally challenged, the father of a number of children, a husband and a successful tile setter, who as I recall ran his own business. He made no silly excuses for himself, he did not wallow in self pity, he achieved. Were he alive today, I have little doubt that the current system would have left him a lifelong ward of the state and general failure-- all in the name of general, shallow beneficence.

    Again, if you give the people you mentioned the opportunity and the encouragement, they would almost all meet your expectations, which when you face the matter squarely, is that they stay in their place, do as they're told, accept your largess, and don't make a fuss: the Tyranny of the Self-Congratulatory Elite.

    Obliviously, everyone needs help from time to time, and some people more than others. But no society can thrive if it attempts to give away more than it requires to maintain its productive elements. There are always limits and hard choices to be made. Pretending that Life works otherwise, will not compel it to do so.

    Thus poverty for all but the most physically and mentally deficient must be seen as a transitory condition for which they have the primary responsibility. It must be accepted that there are always more problems in society than there are resources to address them all.
    I think you're not making the difference between someone who is unemployed and someone who is ill.

    When a person is unemployed here, there are hundreds of options for that person to get back on his feet.

    At an employment office they train a person to write a proper CV, to present himself to job interviews, to write a motivation letter, to respond to the right ads. They test a person's capabilities and guide them in the right direction. There are training courses, financial help for getting into training programmes, and if someone decides to start his own business, there are courses to teach a person how to handle a business, from paperwork to accounting to studying the market.

    With all of that put to the side, if meanwhile the job seeker gets a bad case of pneumonia, he can get treated instantly and in excellent conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    And the productive must be left to enjoy the bulk of their profits, if they are to remain productive.
    Now this is where we totally differ. I think such a mentality comes from a fear of the Socialist system that is very deeply engraved in the minds of Americans. Here is France, with a government which clearly leans to the right, we still believe in the responsibility of each citizen and worker to be productive for the well being of a country as a whole and not on individual basis. In any case the amount deducted for health care is insignificant enough to allow a productive person to thoroughly enjoy the fruits of his productivity all the while putting aside a minor part of his profits for his well being and that of a country as a whole.
    Last edited by Mira; 09-17-09 at 07:55 AM.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  2. #42
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    By the way, here is France you don't benefit from health care automatically. You must work a minimum of 60 hours in a year in order to have a government health insurance.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  3. #43
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    That might be the case in the US, but in France, if people don't pay their income taxes they get a 10% penalty and if that fails they are taken to court.
    "Taken to court." And if they refuse to go, how is that addressed?

    If the Court decides that person is sentenced to jail, do they just go because of stern words?

    What if they merely decide to leave the country, what stops them?

    The answer rhymes with "fun."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    As for the taxes that we pay for health insurance, an employer simply cannot fail to deduct them from our salary.
    Any why can the employer not? What would happen if one did, by for instance paying his employees directly with cash and refusing to submit account records to the government?

    I imagine that the State would want to do something about that, and that if the employer refused to pay them any attention, the State would feel compelled to enforce its will in some manner. I wonder how this might be accomplished?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    At the end of the month an employee gets a detailed document detailed listing of the earnings and the sums that have been deducted down to the smallest penny.

    Storming someone's house with guns to collect taxes is unheard of here.
    I believe that if you'll check your history, going back to the French Revolution, you'll discover the rather direct methods one government or another used to establish obedience and to thoroughly pacify populace.


    Hint: a lot of people got shorter by a head.


    Eventually the fruit of this conditioning made it a simple matter for a far more aggressive foreign power to cow the French entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    You have met a few people but I actually live in France and I can guarantee you that the French are very happy with their health care system and won't give it up.
    That's good, I suppose, but what if the productive simply decide to abandon those who claim their treasure for their own? They will, sooner or later you know.

    Besides, the thief generally loves they system too, so long as he can live on the fruits of his neighbors' labors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    I think you are exaggerating a bit here. The taxes deducted for health care are totally affordable and after the amount is taken out, an employee still has enough income to be able to afford a very comfortable life.
    But who is deciding what's comfortless for the productive? The Parasitic Classes? I like to think that my livestock is comfortable too, until I consume it.

    Who decides what is "affordable?" I imagine that in general it's the receptive class, and not the productive class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Thanks for the concern but I'm happily living in a system that I feel comfortable with. Don't worry too much about rescuing me.
    I'm not particularly worried, just feeling a little pity. Sooner or later reality will intrude, it always does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Now this is where we totally differ. I think such a mentality comes from a fear of the Socialist system that is very deeply engraved in the minds of Americans. Here is France, with a government which clearly leans to the right, we still believe in the responsibility of each citizen and worker to be productive for the well being of a country as a whole and not on individual basis. In any case the amount deducted for health care is insignificant enough to allow a productive person to thoroughly enjoy the fruits of his productivity all the while putting aside a minor part of his profits for his well being and that of a country as a whole.
    I've been, for some time, trying to think of a way to say this gently. I can think of none.

    But you need to understand: France is a vacation destination. I don't know many people who think of it in any other way, nor I think, have most people the Industrialized World in many years. I'm not sure France can be effectively held up as an example of anything but Fancy. It's not a model I hear an clamor for any State to adopt.

    Like most of Europe, it got pretty much a free pass on defense from an aggressive Soviet Union for 40 years or more, thanks to a massive, culturally crude, industrialized and fairly unsophisticated nation that historically recognizes that pretty political thoughts are essentially useless unless backed by force of arms.

    This allowed it and other European countries to build up an inward looking social system, with a marginal economic impact on the larger world, when they should have by rights been building up massive armed forces to protect their own own borders.

    Now, it's people don't have the sense of identity to effectively reproduce themselves.

    My hope is that France will shrug off the ennui of the last few generations and return as a major player in world affairs. But that's going to require a certain willingness to accept some harsher realities.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  4. #44
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    When I explained the symptoms to a friend in the US, he thought he might have the same problem as well. So I told him to go and get checked. His reply was "do you know how much a blood test costs" ?
    $35-$110. Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Do they also realise that some people cannot get jobs or keep a job simply because they suffer from depression ?

    I have a friend in Holland who has been suffering from depression. The government pays for his treatment plus allows him to work only part time and completes his salary for a full time wage until his treatment is over. If the help from the government wasn't provided, this 37 year-old man would have probably ended up living in the street.
    Yea, I can't imagine something like that being abused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    I think you are exaggerating a bit here. The taxes deducted for health care are totally affordable and after the amount is taken out, an employee still has enough income to be able to afford a very comfortable life.
    Okay, but only so long as you've determined that they're able to live a comfortable life with the portion of their income that they're permitted to keep.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #45
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeVFF View Post
    Title explains it all.
    I have coverage through my employer and my husband's employer.

    Interesting thing though. About a year ago my employer decided that if anyone's spouse already had coverage, they could not be on your plan.

    This year they're asking for birth certificates of the children on the plan or the children get removed from the plan. Many of these employees children were born at the hospital where the employee works and have been on their plan for years.

    Insurance companies are demanding more money for less coverage and employers are making demands that harm an individual's family. Un-insured and under-insured increasing each year........The climate of the country has been preparing the way for healthcare reform for a long time. It's a ripened fruit ready to be plucked from the tree.



    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  6. #46
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    I will explain, but please understand, that a child should not have to have this explained.
    The government does not need to execute anyone to enforce the tax code with the threat of deadly force.

    If the Courts for instance decide to send one to jail, an officer armed with a gun will show up at oneís door to enforce the sentence. The purpose of the gun, is of course to protect the officer, but also to enforce his will, and by extension that of the State. It is there to facilitate the use of deadly force.

    If one should fail to pay property taxes on oneís land, eventually one will be evicted or arrested by another operative armed to insure compliance.

    If one fails to heed a traffic officer, one will be pursued with the threat of gunfire.
    Again, this is the fundamental principal that makes any major government possible: that the non-compliant may be killed to enforce the will of the ruling class.

    This isnít particularly evil, but it is a necessary practice to make government possible. Internally, or externally, regardless of philosophy, the will of Government is ultimately enforced with the threat of deadly force.

    I will illustrate once more, for the slower students. Ask yourself, who would ever go to jail if the police were armed with no more than words? And if the ultimate threat to enforce that payment of taxes was a harangue from government operatives who could take no further action, who would pay?

    I hope that this sets to rest this extremely elemental matter.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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