You have been exceedingly rude. I await an apology.
You have been exceedingly rude. I await an apology.
George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."
Yes , it is darkly amusing that you cannot even identify the "parasitic class". The sort of productive people admired by Jefferson - farmers, fisherman, small businessmen- have been excluded from the health care system. That is the price exacted for being FREE, INDEPENDENT and SELF-EMPLOYEDI am darkly amused that all societies seem to instinctively declare certain minorities within themselves as suitable abuse. Today Liberal Democracies have determined that the more successful individuals have reduced property rights, and may be legals robbed.
How disturbing that you (apparently) cannot identify a thief when you see one.How distributing, that the masses gulity of receiving stolen wealth express pride in the system that steals in their name.
Nobody is saying that healthcare is free. We, work, we pay taxes and with those taxes we fund a health care safe box. The funds collected are then used for our medical expenses as a country. That includes, us, those in need and again us if we are in need.
I have had times when I was able to afford health insurance and other times when I wasn't able to. The times when I was not able to afford insurance were the times when I needed medical help the most. One of the reasons is because when a person is unemployed and facing hardships, the person becomes depressed (which is an illness that can be treated) and is prone to be even physically more fragile. So yes, those were the times when my neighbours helped me get back on my feet and become productive again and I'm happy to help my neighbours when they're in need.
By the way, there are no people with guns breaking in and collecting taxes, that's just very wild imagination. The taxes are automatically deducted from the salary.
So in short, the system really works, everyone here has excellent health coverage and the bad news for you, everyone is thrilled about it, rich and poor, employed or unemployed and the French will give up their their daily baguette before giving up their health system.
edit: If you think that I'm paying taxes for those who never make an effort to work and pay taxes, so be it. I'm not going to sit here and enjoy my new computer bought by the money that I saved from taxes, knowing that with that money I could have saved some of my fellow citizens from illness and suffering.
And by the way, I don't believe that people simply decide not to work. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are lots of reasons why some people can never make it. Depression is one of them, then of course, discrimination (race, physical appearance, age) , economical crises and have you thought that some people are simply dumb ? so dumb people should perhaps just suffer?
Last edited by Mira; 09-16-09 at 01:44 AM.
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
To understand does not mean to support or to excuse
If you feel that in my frustration I've been rude, then I humbly apologize for the offense,and ask forgiveness.
I do however maintain that the system you describe is repellent, and makes victims of its practitioners.
Any Welfare State or Socialistic scheme is a form of prettified theft at worst, or a perversion of charity at best. It is the equivalent of the Salvation Army members at their kettles around Christmas time, not ringing bells, but accosting well dressed passersby with a pistol.
A number of people seem to find this description odd, as such schemes are entered into through democratic process. What they fail to consider, is that the unwilling are compelled to participate, and those unwilling to participate will disproportionally include the very individuals upon whom the highest coercive burdens will be placed.
The usefulness of such thuggery to politicians is simple control of the masses, much as a wise zookeeper will strive to make his charges' cages comfortable, and distract the livestock from consideration of the wider world.
Were your society, or mine truly enlightened, the goals would be first to encourage those who receive largess from their more materially fortunate neighbors to feel direct, personal gratitude to them, while at the same time requiring of the wealthy only what they were properly convinced to freely give. (And I believe that people can be convinced, over the long run, to give more than they will surrender.)
But a better goal for the long term, would be to create economies where all but those most encumbered by nature could earn their own way, and have no need to seek the rightful wealth of others to meet their needs.
The evolving system is a concoction of covetousness, serfdom, coercion and incipient tyranny, masquerading as social progress. It leaves the entire society dependent on a process of slow cannibalization its more productive strata.
Quod scripsi, scripsi
I get mine at work.
Oh, there would be stages, legal actions, fines, and so forth. But in the end, and this is vital for everyone to understand about any government, their will is enforced with guns.
Because you are law-abiding, and like most of us, thoroughly pacified, the gun is not much in evidence. But I assure, you it is there. And in extremis, it would be used to compel your obedience.
Again, this is fundamental to all government above the level of an extended family group. Ultimately, the compliance of the dissenting members is always enforced with the threat of deadly force. This is why martial law in national emergencies is always an option, and the definition of "emergency" is in the hands of government.
So apparently, not everyone is enchanted.
As a purely subjective aside, I will comment in passing that I saw a television production recently partly set in a British hospital. I kept losing the plot because the setting seemed so antiquated that it was distracting.
What you are saying, is that your welfare as a productive ember of the population is valueless, and everything you own that in any manner improves your lot above that of the meanest beggar is an affront.
Myself, I do not believe that, and assert that you should have that benefit of your wages, including the benefit of making reasonable charitable contributions.
The alternative is to enter into a downward spiral of irreducible feelings of guilt until you lose functionality and are of no use to anyone.
I have been involved with public health, I am occasionally a jail guard, I am an emergency medical technician, I have taken in homeless persons from the street, and I've watched friends I loved carted off in shackles for their failings.
I can assure you, that there is a strong contingent of people in any society, perhaps the majority, who given the chance and encouragement, will sink to the lowest level of functionality possible while still maintaining an acceptable level of comfort.
This is why societies require moral codes, why certain behaviors must cause people to be ostracized, why self respect is thousand of times more vital than self esteem, and why it is self destructive for a free nation to remove the stigma of undesirability from poverty in periods of general plenty.
Again, if you give the people you mentioned the opportunity and the encouragement, they would almost all meet your expectations, which when you face the matter squarely, is that they stay in their place, do as they're told, accept your largess, and don't make a fuss: the Tyranny of the Self-Congratulatory Elite.
Obliviously, everyone needs help from time to time, and some people more than others. But no society can thrive if it attempts to give away more than it requires to maintain its productive elements. There are always limits and hard choices to be made. Pretending that Life works otherwise, will not compel it to do so.
Thus poverty for all but the most physically and mentally deficient must be seen as a transitory condition for which they have the primary responsibility. It must be accepted that there are always more problems in society than there are resources to address them all.
And the productive must be left to enjoy the bulk of their profits, if they are to remain productive.
Last edited by Oftencold; 09-16-09 at 06:39 PM.
Quod scripsi, scripsi
Now, I've got a sub-par health care plan that covers half of what my old plan did, and my employer pays through the nose into the union's health and pension fund.