View Poll Results: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

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  • Yes

    35 72.92%
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Thread: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

  1. #31
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Your daughter gets nothing for free. Please get this though your head! She is the recipient of charity and extortion from your more productive countrymen. Period.

    Your proper attitude is abject humility. You daughter should have this explained to her at an early age, that she lives in a system quite content with the concept of her being a lifelong beggar attendant upon the labors and concern of others. She also needs to be appraised that her parents are deliriously happy with this situation.

    I''m sorry to have to be blunt, but I've had it with robbery and elective serfdom being touted as some sort of social enlightenment.
    Blimey what has got you so hot under the collar. I never said my daughter got her medical treatment for free, I said that when ill she did not have to run around looking for sources to fund her treatment. Very clear. She pays her taxes like everyone else and when she needs she receives, that is how it works.

    You have been exceedingly rude. I await an apology.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  2. #32
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Blimey what has got you so hot under the collar. I never said my daughter got her medical treatment for free, I said that when ill she did not have to run around looking for sources to fund her treatment. Very clear. She pays her taxes like everyone else and when she needs she receives, that is how it works.

    You have been exceedingly rude. I await an apology.
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. it's foolproof.

  3. #33
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    A minority that the parasitic classes are quite happy to see compelled to surrender their wealth upon pain of death. I often stress that ultimately, governments enforce their will with the threat of death, this is why law enforcement officials are armed.
    Your entire world view should be shattered after the last few years during which the parasitic class ( the F.I.R.E. sector) decimated the global economy, kept their ill-gotten gains AND stole from the taxpayer to keep their ill conceived casino in business.
    I am darkly amused that all societies seem to instinctively declare certain minorities within themselves as suitable abuse. Today Liberal Democracies have determined that the more successful individuals have reduced property rights, and may be legals robbed.
    Yes , it is darkly amusing that you cannot even identify the "parasitic class". The sort of productive people admired by Jefferson - farmers, fisherman, small businessmen- have been excluded from the health care system. That is the price exacted for being FREE, INDEPENDENT and SELF-EMPLOYED

    How distributing, that the masses gulity of receiving stolen wealth express pride in the system that steals in their name.
    How disturbing that you (apparently) cannot identify a thief when you see one.

  4. #34
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Your daughter gets nothing for free. Please get this though your head! She is the recipient of charity and extortion from your more productive countrymen. Period.

    Your proper attitude is abject humility. You daughter should have this explained to her at an early age, that she lives in a system quite content with the concept of her being a lifelong beggar attendant upon the labors and concern of others. She also needs to be appraised that her parents are deliriously happy with this situation.

    I''m sorry to have to be blunt, but I've had it with robbery and elective serfdom being touted as some sort of social enlightenment.
    I'm sorry to tell you that you are opposing a system that you have absolutely not taken your time to even get a hint of what it's all about.

    Nobody is saying that healthcare is free. We, work, we pay taxes and with those taxes we fund a health care safe box. The funds collected are then used for our medical expenses as a country. That includes, us, those in need and again us if we are in need.

    I have had times when I was able to afford health insurance and other times when I wasn't able to. The times when I was not able to afford insurance were the times when I needed medical help the most. One of the reasons is because when a person is unemployed and facing hardships, the person becomes depressed (which is an illness that can be treated) and is prone to be even physically more fragile. So yes, those were the times when my neighbours helped me get back on my feet and become productive again and I'm happy to help my neighbours when they're in need.

    By the way, there are no people with guns breaking in and collecting taxes, that's just very wild imagination. The taxes are automatically deducted from the salary.

    So in short, the system really works, everyone here has excellent health coverage and the bad news for you, everyone is thrilled about it, rich and poor, employed or unemployed and the French will give up their their daily baguette before giving up their health system.

    edit: If you think that I'm paying taxes for those who never make an effort to work and pay taxes, so be it. I'm not going to sit here and enjoy my new computer bought by the money that I saved from taxes, knowing that with that money I could have saved some of my fellow citizens from illness and suffering.
    And by the way, I don't believe that people simply decide not to work. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are lots of reasons why some people can never make it. Depression is one of them, then of course, discrimination (race, physical appearance, age) , economical crises and have you thought that some people are simply dumb ? so dumb people should perhaps just suffer?
    Last edited by Mira; 09-16-09 at 03:44 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    The collection of taxes is always enforced with the threat of death. If you are arrested for refusing to submit to taxes, the police will use force to compel your submission. If you fell, you will be pursued by armed operatives.

    Governments always enforce their will through force in the end. This is the fundamental rule of government, and must be understood.


    If your fiscal betters, who you wish to compel to pay for your health care, or anything else you decide you'd like to have should resist, you have by your vote, authorized your governemnt to forcefully seize their wealth in your name. Didn't you know this?\

    Pirates of old at least had the decency to seize treasure themselves, not send surrogates with arms to do so, them proclaim the moral superiority of their practices.
    Thank you.

    Can you prove or explain this in bold?

    When was the last execution for non-payment of taxes?

  6. #36
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    If you feel that in my frustration I've been rude, then I humbly apologize for the offense,and ask forgiveness.

    I do however maintain that the system you describe is repellent, and makes victims of its practitioners.

    Any Welfare State or Socialistic scheme is a form of prettified theft at worst, or a perversion of charity at best. It is the equivalent of the Salvation Army members at their kettles around Christmas time, not ringing bells, but accosting well dressed passersby with a pistol.

    A number of people seem to find this description odd, as such schemes are entered into through democratic process. What they fail to consider, is that the unwilling are compelled to participate, and those unwilling to participate will disproportionally include the very individuals upon whom the highest coercive burdens will be placed.

    The usefulness of such thuggery to politicians is simple control of the masses, much as a wise zookeeper will strive to make his charges' cages comfortable, and distract the livestock from consideration of the wider world.

    Were your society, or mine truly enlightened, the goals would be first to encourage those who receive largess from their more materially fortunate neighbors to feel direct, personal gratitude to them, while at the same time requiring of the wealthy only what they were properly convinced to freely give. (And I believe that people can be convinced, over the long run, to give more than they will surrender.)

    But a better goal for the long term, would be to create economies where all but those most encumbered by nature could earn their own way, and have no need to seek the rightful wealth of others to meet their needs.

    The evolving system is a concoction of covetousness, serfdom, coercion and incipient tyranny, masquerading as social progress. It leaves the entire society dependent on a process of slow cannibalization its more productive strata.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  7. #37
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    I get mine at work.

  8. #38
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    By the way, there are no people with guns breaking in and collecting taxes, that's just very wild imagination. The taxes are automatically deducted from the salary.
    And if you found a way to avoid those taxes, and were found out? If those who processed your salary refused to make the deduction?

    Oh, there would be stages, legal actions, fines, and so forth. But in the end, and this is vital for everyone to understand about any government, their will is enforced with guns.

    Because you are law-abiding, and like most of us, thoroughly pacified, the gun is not much in evidence. But I assure, you it is there. And in extremis, it would be used to compel your obedience.

    Again, this is fundamental to all government above the level of an extended family group. Ultimately, the compliance of the dissenting members is always enforced with the threat of deadly force. This is why martial law in national emergencies is always an option, and the definition of "emergency" is in the hands of government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    So in short, the system really works, everyone here has excellent health coverage and the bad news for you, everyone is thrilled about it, rich and poor, employed or unemployed and the French will give up their their daily baguette before giving up their health system.
    Actually I have met quite a number of people, including medical providers who have stated emphatically that your system is best avoided.

    So apparently, not everyone is enchanted.

    As a purely subjective aside, I will comment in passing that I saw a television production recently partly set in a British hospital. I kept losing the plot because the setting seemed so antiquated that it was distracting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    edit: If you think that I'm paying taxes for those who never make an effort to work and pay taxes, so be it. I'm not going to sit here and enjoy my new computer bought by the money that I saved from taxes, knowing that with that money I could have saved some of my fellow citizens from illness and suffering.
    What about your old computer? Could that not be sacrificed for the poor and the sick? What about your dressy clothing? Snack food? Television? Vacation pay? When they die, why not bury family members naked in a sack? Surely, there is no justification for funeral expenses when there are people in need!

    What you are saying, is that your welfare as a productive ember of the population is valueless, and everything you own that in any manner improves your lot above that of the meanest beggar is an affront.

    Myself, I do not believe that, and assert that you should have that benefit of your wages, including the benefit of making reasonable charitable contributions.

    The alternative is to enter into a downward spiral of irreducible feelings of guilt until you lose functionality and are of no use to anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    And by the way, I don't believe that people simply decide not to work.
    Then, you live in a fantasy world, and need to be rescued.

    I have been involved with public health, I am occasionally a jail guard, I am an emergency medical technician, I have taken in homeless persons from the street, and I've watched friends I loved carted off in shackles for their failings.

    I can assure you, that there is a strong contingent of people in any society, perhaps the majority, who given the chance and encouragement, will sink to the lowest level of functionality possible while still maintaining an acceptable level of comfort.

    This is why societies require moral codes, why certain behaviors must cause people to be ostracized, why self respect is thousand of times more vital than self esteem, and why it is self destructive for a free nation to remove the stigma of undesirability from poverty in periods of general plenty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are lots of reasons why some people can never make it. Depression is one of them, then of course, discrimination (race, physical appearance, age) , economical crises and have you thought that some people are simply dumb ? so dumb people should perhaps just suffer?
    I used to have a relative through marriage who was mentally challenged, the father of a number of children, a husband and a successful tile setter, who as I recall ran his own business. He made no silly excuses for himself, he did not wallow in self pity, he achieved. Were he alive today, I have little doubt that the current system would have left him a lifelong ward of the state and general failure-- all in the name of general, shallow beneficence.

    Again, if you give the people you mentioned the opportunity and the encouragement, they would almost all meet your expectations, which when you face the matter squarely, is that they stay in their place, do as they're told, accept your largess, and don't make a fuss: the Tyranny of the Self-Congratulatory Elite.

    Obliviously, everyone needs help from time to time, and some people more than others. But no society can thrive if it attempts to give away more than it requires to maintain its productive elements. There are always limits and hard choices to be made. Pretending that Life works otherwise, will not compel it to do so.

    Thus poverty for all but the most physically and mentally deficient must be seen as a transitory condition for which they have the primary responsibility. It must be accepted that there are always more problems in society than there are resources to address them all.

    And the productive must be left to enjoy the bulk of their profits, if they are to remain productive.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 09-16-09 at 08:39 PM.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  9. #39
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I get mine at work.
    I assume, and most fervently hope, we are still talking about health care.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  10. #40
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    Re: Do you currently have a healthcare plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I get mine at work.
    I lost my great, affordable employer provided plan when my company decided to sign a nation-wide agreement with a labor union, even though I'm in a right-to-work state.

    Now, I've got a sub-par health care plan that covers half of what my old plan did, and my employer pays through the nose into the union's health and pension fund.

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