View Poll Results: Will you utilize the public healthcare option?

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  • Yes

    21 35.00%
  • No

    23 38.33%
  • Maybe

    16 26.67%
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Thread: Would you utilize the public option?

  1. #121
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'll give you a hint, Voidwar, because I know you have difficulty with terminology.
    I have zero problems with terminology, and because of that, not only do I not need to use underhanded practices like terminology substitution, , , I catch and expose the use of this dishonest tactic every time it is used against me. Just like where Captain Courtesy tried it on page two. . . .

    Your post:
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I work with insurance companies daily. Sad to say I would trust the government before I would trust an insurance company.
    My post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    And to whom would one appeal a breached contract ?
    Your attempt at terminology substitution :
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When one appeals a denial of benefits with the insurance company, one would appeal to the insurance company. When one would appeal a denial of benefits with a public option, one would appeal to the agency in charge of the public option...similar to appealing to Medicare, now.
    I think this makes it pretty evident who has difficulty with terminology.

    It is Captain Courtesy who cannot answer the question he was asked on page two, and has had to resort to underhanded practices like terminology substitution

  2. #122
    Student 75Greeno's Avatar
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    no because that is the plan get them addicted

  3. #123
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You always post in an arrogant, condescending, attacking tone,
    and the pot said . . . "but kettle, you're sooo black"

  4. #124
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You want to change the goalposts
    You mean like you try to change the goalposts right here ? ? ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When one appeals a denial of benefits with the insurance company, one would appeal to the insurance company. When one would appeal a denial of benefits with a public option, one would appeal to the agency in charge of the public option...similar to appealing to Medicare, now.

  5. #125
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You always post in an arrogant, condescending, attacking tone, especially when you have no idea what you are discussing...which is most of the time. Then you whine when you get it right back at you. You don't like it? Don't do it. I've told you this for a long time, but you seem to be unable to understand this rather simple concept. You want to continue to post like a jerk, you will get it right back. One things I will NOT do, however, is match your uninformed nonsense. I will continue to try to educate you.
    You are free to point out what was arrogant and attacking or even partisan in my initial post to you:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058251835

    How about my second post to you?

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1058251910

    Which garnered this arrogant remark:

    I'll gladly discuss this with you when you address the issue that I was presenting, which was NOT costs. If you want to have a monologue about costs, which was NOT what I addressed, be my guest, but I have no idea who you are talking to.

    It is obvious that your desperate attempts to avoid substance and accuse others of the very tactics you use is nothing more than an attempt to cover up the fact that it is you who plays the rabid partisan in these debates with your selective outrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You post like an extreme rightwing partisan hack and an uninformed one at that. It would be nice if just once you could debate coherently without tossing in all of the partisan hack rubbish that you throw in each and every post you make, and actually make few accurate statements. Complete nonsense all of it. And, as usual, when you get what you give, you whine.
    Really; why don’t you be more specific and share with me the exact “extreme rightwing partisan hack rubbish” comments that I made in this thread?

    This should be truly amusing to see your personal definition of what “extreme rightwing partisan hack rubbish” means. You make me laugh with your hyper emotional nonsensical babble about what constitutes “extreme rightwing partisan hack rubbish.”

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Have you had enough of this crap, TD? Are you prepared to actually debate like a civil human being, for once?
    You’re the one engaging in the tactic of personal demagoguery, not I. But I look forward to a more coherent response to the above questions for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, it's not. You want to change the goalposts because you've got nothing on the topic. I understand that. But you try to change them, I will call you on it. Don't like it? Don't change them.
    No one is changing any goalposts except for you desperate attempts to suggest that the debate is what you say it should be.

    Again, you are welcome to illustrate where my comments wander off topic in a debate on the “public option.” It will be almost as amusing as your attempts to define what is meant by “extreme rightwing partisan hack rubbish.”


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The notion that you can add any pertinent information to the topic at hand is laughable and the notion that you have any expertise on dealing with insurance companies is foolish.
    Once again what we have here is another “because you say so.” Alas, the world doesn’t revolve around your personal biases and hypocrisy now does it Captain?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    See how this works? You'll get what you give. Stop whining and debate the topic if you actually have anything of substance to add.
    Once again, the one engaging in the tactic of personal attacks and partisan hackery happens to be you. But then how could you notice your own uninformed hackery when you are so blinded by your own arrogance and condescension?


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is nonsense, and I have already explained why. There is a procedure if you have an issue with how either private or public insurance handles the releasing of your benefits. Both are identical. Suing a government agency in these cases is as allowable as suing an insurance company. Like I said, you do not know what you are talking about.
    I challenge you to find anyone with a modicum of intelligence to suggest that denial of coverage is the same as breach of contract.

    Please, find someone coherent who knows the law. This argument is laughable at best, but is more the realm of juvenile fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Facts are, this is not what we are discussing, nor is it the proposal on the table. This is you changing the goalposts. Start another thread, but don't pollute this one with your foolishness.
    I am sorry, but again your would be wrong and just because you desperately wish to avoid your own erroneous conclusions doesn’t change the fact that you have no clue what this debate is about and what constitutes a breach of contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Get back to me when you actually have some accurate information and have decided to debate civilly and without your usual nastiness or derailing tactics. Perhaps then we can discuss the issue at hand.
    Get back to me when you can comprehend how silly you look claiming that a denial of benefits is the same as a breach of contract, that any of my comments are an example of “extreme rightwing partisan hack rubbish” and how my arguments are unrelated to the thread OP.

    I have to laugh at your desperate attempts to bait and troll; they are about as pathetic as your attempts to distinguish a denial of benefits from what constitutes a breach of contract.


  6. #126
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    I find the entire conversation surreal! Don't you?
    Medicare has financial difficulties because gov't has made too little effort to question physicians judgment about expensive tests and fraudulent billing. Deny care??- Not that I have noticed! Yet, in the same breath people argue that Medicare is gonna kill your grandma by denying care AND that it costs too much. PHEW! Wait till the private insurers get their paws on Grandma: Grandma is going to be outsourced to Mexico....But maybe that is a good thing: warm climate, caring people, plenty of cheap pharmaceuticals.

    Personally, and I do take it personally, I don't understand why so many people, here, don't want people like me to have health insurance. Its a mystery.
    Yet no one has made these hypothetical arguments; they are again fabricated by you in an attempt to support the weak assertion that Government managed care will lead to better outcomes.

    But alas, there are little in the way of facts to support this assertion. What I really want those who desperately support the Obama program to tell me is how this program will not add trillions to the already ballooning deficit and how this will not COST every single person in America even more.

    Also answer the already asked questions that if this Government cannot even manage its own budget and protect our borders from illegal immigrants, what makes it logical that they can now manage 1/5 of this nations economy in health care better than the private markets?

    I won’t hold my breath waiting for a credible well thought out answer to those questions because it is obvious you want to avoid substance.

    P.S. No one is stopping you from getting healthcare, only you are doing that. What we are attempting to prevent is you and the rest of us from becoming dependent wards of the STATE which leads to higher costs, less choice and a growing bureaucratic menace that threatens the foundations of our liberties.

  7. #127
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    How does the "public option" lead to Government takeover of our healthcare system leading to less choice, lower quality and long waiting lists:

    (1) First pass a law that creates a "public option" where anyone who wants can OPT to use this instead of the "private" option and subsidize the true costs with the taxes confiscated from wealthier Americans.

    (2) Pass laws that restrict the ability of private healthcare providers to make a profit by demanding that everyone pay the same for their insurance regardless of their age and or medical condition, and then state that they have to provide this same insurance to anyone regardless of pre-existing conditions.

    (3) Sit back and watch most businesses opt out of providing employees with health insurance forcing many to opt for the Government plan which is being subsidized by wealthier tax payers and businesses and watch as insurance providers go out of business because they cannot make a reasonable return on investment and many of their customers run to the cheaper Government alternative which is, of course, subsidized by the tax payers.

    (4) Raise taxes on the insurance providers and levy large fines when they are found to be out of compliance with the growing amounts of legislative red tape they will be forced to deal with.

    In the end, there will no longer be any competition because the Government, subsidized by wealthy Americans and businesses, will be able to undercut private insurers and will have regulated them out of business because they can no longer make a reasonable profit.

    Now with this scenario, let’s also look at how Government plans like Frances can artificially keep their costs temporarily lower then those here in the US:

    (1) Force doctors to a pay level that is 1/3 of what our doctors currently can expect to make.

    (2) Limit how many doctors can practice medicine in the country.

    (3) Exact huge taxes on the population in a vane attempt to cover the budget busting public option and never ending accelerating costs associated with it.

    (4) disallow anyone to be able to sue doctors who work under the public option; anyone have any data that suggests that ANY other nation has the number of malpractice suits we have in the US?

    (5) Dictate the rate structures that can be charged by physicians and drug providers.

    In the end, the ONLY thing that can be the eventual outcome of such systems is less choice, less innovation, fewer physicians, ever increasing taxation and longer waiting lines for critical care.

    I know the fantasy here is that Government can actually manage something; but history suggests that this is nothing more than fantastical wishful thinking on the part of those who would willingly shed their liberties to become dependent wards of the State.


  8. #128
    Student MikeVFF's Avatar
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    In all honesty, the creation of this thread was to debunk Obama's proposed "5%" of people will use the public option. Mission Successful

  9. #129
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I mistrust Government run programs based on their record. I am constantly amazed that suddenly someone like you thinks that Government will manage 1/5 of the US economy better than the private markets and at a lower cost. There is not one single shred of evidence to support this assumption.
    Medicare is underfunded but much more efficiently managed than private insurance and enjoys far higher customer satisfaction.

    The FACT that many Americans are not healthy has ZERO to do with our health system. Understanding this is a first step to honest intellectual debate.

    Huh?!! Health care costs have nothing to do ill health? The ill-health of Americans is a significant reason for the high cost of health care in the U.S. and far from discouraging bad habits, we subsidize them.
    Claiming that healthcare is expensive in a vacuum of comparative analysis is pretty useless.

    Yes, behind a mortgage, your car and insurance payments and groceries, healthcare is probably the fourth or fifth highest expense in your budget. But the notion that Government will bring down the costs cannot be supported by any facts or historic data.
    I am sure that you are aware that we spend around double that of most developed countries.

    At over $25,000 a year for a low deductible policy (family of 3) Health insurance would be the highest expense in my budget...if I could afford it.



    This is nothing more than a claim. But the notion that a Government that cannot manage its own budget, prevent aliens from flooding into our borders and with a history of expensive mismanaged policies will now suddenly operate so efficient that the savings will pay for the program requires willful denial beyond the pale.
    Again, this thread will become unmanageable if you want to debate every function of government, every government program. I will just point out that many of the successes in government are the things you will not see or experience and therefore have no sense of appreciation. Maybe, you need to travel more so that you can experience truly dysfunctional government. Be sure to drink the tap water where ever you go.

    Frances system is extremely expensive and that nation is struggling with the reality that they are rapidly running out of funds and are hard pressed to further tax an already overburdened tax payer.

    Yet, much cheaper than U.S. health care

    Like most countries, France faces problems of rising costs of prescription medication, increasing unemployment, and a large aging population.[11]
    Expenses related to the healthcare system in France represented 10.5% of the country's GDP and 15.4% of its public expenditures. In 2004, 78.4% of these expenses were paid for by the state.
    Yet, their challenges are less severe than that of the U.S. and no one dies or goes bankrupt for lack of insurance.
    Healthcare Costs and U.S. Competitiveness - Council on Foreign Relations

    Factoring in costs borne by the government, the private sector, and individuals, the United States spends over $1.9 trillion annually on healthcare expenses, more than any other industrialized country. Researchers at Johns Hopkins Medical School estimate the United States spends 44 percent more per capita than Switzerland, the country with the second highest expenditures, and 134 percent more than the median for member states of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). These costs prompt fears that an increasing number of U.S. businesses will outsource jobs overseas or offshore business operations completely. U.S. economic woes have heightened the burden of healthcare costs both on individuals and businesses. The Obama administration's first budget includes billions to overhaul health care, and despite the economic downturn, experts see a consensus emerging that healthcare reform should move forward.


    The United States spent 16 percent of its GDP in 2007 on health care, higher than any other developed nation. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that number will rise to 25 percent by 2025 without changes to federal law

    Here are some more facts to digest:

    Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers, and academics beat the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes that their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. Before we turn to government as the solution, however, we should consider some unheralded facts about America’s health care system.

    1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.

    2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.

    3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.

    4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.

    5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.

    6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom.

    7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed.

    8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians.

    9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain.

    10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.

    Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

    Hoover Institution - Hoover Digest - Here’s a Second Opinion
    This is beside the point and some of it is debateable . Start a new thread and I will be happy to point out the errors in the list.

  10. #130
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    Re: Would you utilize the public option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Yet no one has made these hypothetical arguments; they are again fabricated by you in an attempt to support the weak assertion that Government managed care will lead to better outcomes.

    But alas, there are little in the way of facts to support this assertion. What I really want those who desperately support the Obama program to tell me is how this program will not add trillions to the already ballooning deficit and how this will not COST every single person in America even more.

    Also answer the already asked questions that if this Government cannot even manage its own budget and protect our borders from illegal immigrants,
    You have a problem sticking to the topic. IMMIGRATION has nothing to do with this topic.
    what makes it logical that they can now manage 1/5 of this nations economy in health care better than the private markets?
    I can think of many ideas that I like better than the H.C. plan considered in Congress but leaving the chaos that exists, in place, will mean certain disaster.

    P.S. No one is stopping you from getting healthcare, only you are doing that. What we are attempting to prevent is you and the rest of us from becoming dependent wards of the STATE which leads to higher costs, less choice and a growing bureaucratic menace that threatens the foundations of our liberties.
    This topic has nothing to do with our "liberties" unless you are referring to the people chained to a job they do not like simply because they cannot afford to lose the health insurance.

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