View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #81
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    The gov't part of the equation is irrelevant. Whether gov't takes more money from some people than others to redistribute health care dollars OR the hospital does it by charging some people more than others for the same procedure, it is NOT VOLUNTARY.
    Yes, and I was talking about voluntary charity - something entirely different from the two government-backed theft schemes you've mentioned...


    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Because the consensus of the majority who live in this country have made that determination
    And if the majority of people in a country decide that rounding up all Jews and putting them in concentration camps is a good idea, does that make it justified?
    Last edited by Alex Libman; 09-17-09 at 12:52 PM.

  2. #82
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post


    And if the majority of people in a country decide that rounding up all Jews and putting them in concentration camps is a good idea, does that make it justified?
    Oh puleeze. I.M.O. the first person that mentions Nazis in any debate has just lost the debate.

    It is such a a cliched act of desperation.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    MHO is insurance did a lot of damage cost-wise, but it probably also made us have more dollars to invest in all these fancy state of the art hospitals and so forth, so you take the good with the bad.

    Again, just an opinion, but government intervention in this rabid dog was inevitable. All people should be able to pay for healthcare out of pocket and that will never be possible, and it never was. I still have tonsils cause my mom couldn't pay for the surgery. Does anybody know how sick I used to get with ear infections and my mom would call the pharmacist and beg for a couple penicillan pills? No kidding. I have crooked teeth because mom couldn't afford braces, but all my friends had insurance, so they had straight teeth. Teeth make a big difference in one's appearance.

    I'd like to hear from people in their 50's on this one, and those who had insurance and those who didn't. Big difference when you have a dad with a fairly good job.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Oh puleeze. I.M.O. the first person that mentions Nazis in any debate has just lost the debate.

    It is such a a cliched act of desperation.
    No, what you're doing now is a cliched act of desperation.

    I've made a legitimate point that I could have made using any other historical example, from the trial of Socrates to the requiring / banning of headscarves. State violence, whether backed by guns or by the mob (or both), isn't justified, period.
    Last edited by Alex Libman; 09-17-09 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    Yes, and I was talking about voluntary charity - something entirely different from the two government-backed theft schemes you've mentioned...




    And if the majority of people in a country decide that rounding up all Jews and putting them in concentration camps is a good idea, does that make it justified?
    Quite different scenarios. One is a tax and spend scheme, and the other is government organized genocide. Not fair to bring in the ol' Nazi comparison for every argument.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnDrum View Post
    Quite different scenarios. One is a tax and spend scheme, and the other is government organized genocide. Not fair to bring in the ol' Nazi comparison for every argument.
    They're both backed by the same "divine right of government" delusion that I'm challenging.

  7. #87
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    They're both backed by the same "divine right of government" delusion that I'm challenging.
    Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy for a reason.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Anticipating this very response, I said VIRTUALLY all.
    And, as you know, virtually all developed societies have concluded that basic health care is a human right.
    -How does your right to life trump their right to keep the fruits of their labor?
    -Is it immoral to force others to pay for the goods and services you receive?
    -How does your 'right' to health care trump their right to keep the fruits of their labor?
    I think I answered you pages ago- along with others. Your fruits and labors have not been accumulated by you in a void. You have these things because of the many benefits associated with citizenship in this country. To pay for all of these benefits we tax people. We tax people in a progressive manner because it is pragmatic and makes more sense to tax someone more when they benefit more from the opportunities made possible by the resources, infrastructure and military power of this nation. That is fair, I.M.O. Adam Smith advocated progressive taxation. How we allocate the use of these taxes is determined by voters. If voters prefer to pay for H.C. via taxes then so be it.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    And, as you know, virtually all developed societies have concluded that basic health care is a human right.
    First:
    How does having a right to something equate to the right to have the means to exercise that right provided to you by others?

    Second:
    That doesn't address the issue.

    People have a right to be compensated for the goods and services they provide, and so that compensation is rightly expected by those that DO provide those goods and services. If you cannot pay for someting, those that provide that something have no obligation to provide it for free, and no one else is any obligation to cover the cost for you.

    Why/how is health care different?

    I think I answered you pages ago- along with others
    Your fruits and labors have not been accumulated by you in a void.
    That I live in a society does not in any way mean those in that society have a legitimate claim to the fruit of my labor within it; whle there may be some organization structure that set the stage for my earning what I earn, the fact is that -I- earned it.
    How does your right to life trump that?
    How does your 'right' to health care trump that?

    How we allocate the use of these taxes is determined by voters. If voters prefer to pay for H.C. via taxes then so be it
    Again - fallacy: Argumentum ad populum
    That the majority agrees in no way makes the argument sound.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Assume that:
    I am sick. I go to the doctor. The doctor provides goods/services.
    I do not have insurance and I cannot pay for the goods/services provided.

    What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?
    - I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay
    - The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided
    - The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received
    - The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received
    The least fair outcome is obviously that the taxpayers should foot the bill of an outcome between a physician and his/their patients.

    I guess we need a definition of what "fair" is to have a real debate. I define fair as being an adverb in that it means playing fair or in a fair manner.

    There is nothing fair about expecting complete strangers to have their income confiscated by the Government to be redistributed through the pandering of votes.

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