View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctorís other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #171
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Gospel According to Goobieman. Once again, I'm not hearing any logical arguments from you...just more parroting of mindless dogma, with the expectation that everyone should automatically agree with you.
    I am fascinated by the argument that claiming what you earn should belong to you as being mindless dogma.


  2. #172
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    For some, a tax confiscated by government to pay for such care is morally more reprehensible than allowing someone to die.

    You choose.
    This is a farcical argument which contains an illogical fallacy that the ONLY choices here are to allow someone to die, or allow Government to create a vast ineffective national healthcare policy; which will actually lead to even more deaths waiting for critical operations due to shortages and ineffective cost containment policies.

    There are far better choices than allowing the Government to make us all dependent wards of the state; the fact that you REFUSE to acknowledge this and REFUSE to attempt to comprehend arguments supporting other options doesn't make your case more credible.

  3. #173
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    rolleyes Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is simply incorrect. Rights are not positive obligations on other people, rather, they are negative obligations, in that they require the inaction of others. I cannot infringe upon your life, but this does not mean I must provide you the means to retain it. Rights are not entitlements.
    not everyone agrees with you

    The idea of human rights is also closely related to that of natural rights; some recognize no difference between the two and regard both as labels for the same thing, while others choose to keep the terms separate to eliminate association with some features traditionally associated with natural rights.[4]

    What makes your "natural rights" trump social or human rights (AKA the right to health care)?

    Blurring the lines between natural and legal rights, U.S. statesman James Madison believed that some rights, such as trial by jury, are social rights, arising neither from natural law nor from positive law but from the social contract from which a government derives its authority.[1] ..Wikepedia


    Yea, I should just leave because you don't know what rights are.
    O.K. be that way!


    I'm not concerned with popular sentiment. People are mostly stupid, and the Founders understood this, which is why they despised direct democracy / majority rule and instituted a representative republic. The tyranny of the majority is no less immoral than the tyranny of a few.
    And yet the supreme court has never found medicare/medicaid to be unconstitutional.

    Simply because the majority wants to do something doesn't make it right; that's the only point he was trying to communicate, but I understand your insistence on ignoring that point, since it grossly undermines your argument.
    We are not talking about mass murder!!

    I assume that everyone engaged in this debate would rather A) Never pay any taxes for any purpose other than defense and B) never die of a curable illness for lack of money.
    The most difficult dilemmas in the world (and in relationships, I might add) arise from the friction between rights- positives if you will. Two positive outcomes which cannot be simultaneously achieved and are therefore in conflict. Generally, they are never definitely resolved. The only alternative to peaceful choice made via the will of the majority is combat. How else do you resolve such conflicts?

  4. #174
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    This is a farcical argument which contains an illogical fallacy that the ONLY choices here are to allow someone to die, or allow Government to create a vast ineffective national healthcare policy; which will actually lead to even more deaths waiting for critical operations due to shortages and ineffective cost containment policies.

    There are far better choices than allowing the Government to make us all dependent wards of the state; the fact that you REFUSE to acknowledge this and REFUSE to attempt to comprehend arguments supporting other options doesn't make your case more credible.
    As far as I know this is not a thread about the specifics of health care policy but people do die prematurely for lack of access to health care and w/o medicare /medicaid the numbers would be a great deal higher.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    As far as I know this is not a thread about the specifics of health care policy but people do die prematurely for lack of access to health care and w/o medicare /medicaid the numbers would be a great deal higher.
    People die waiting for critical operations that are unavailable to them due to the Government policies used to contain healthcare costs in nations with Universal care too.

    Again, why do you argue as if there are only TWO options; the status quo or Government interventionism? This is a fallacy and false argument and can only be interpreted as a hyper partisan effort to support Liberal Democrats who wish to create a dependent class of citizens.

  6. #176
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    People die waiting for critical operations that are unavailable to them due to the Government policies used to contain healthcare costs in nations with Universal care too.

    Again, why do you argue as if there are only TWO options; the status quo or Government interventionism? This is a fallacy and false argument and can only be interpreted as a hyper partisan effort to support Liberal Democrats who wish to create a dependent class of citizens.
    Let me remind you that the thread began with this basic question:

    "Denial of goods and services due to inability to pay is the societal norm, one common across virtually all societies.
    Why should health care be an exception?

    How does your right to life trump their right to keep the fruits of their labor?"


    We have been discussing two options, fundamental philosophical underpinnings, you might say.

  7. #177
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Even if I agree with it, it doesn't make your preferred outcome correct.
    Quite right, but it at least gives us a premise on which to begin our discussion. Clearly I don't agree with the idea that it's inherently unfair to tax you to pay for public services. Clearly you don't agree with the idea that it's inherently unfair for people to die because they can't afford health care, possibly through no fault of their own. So since we don't have an agreement on THOSE premises, it makes no SENSE to start the debate from either of those premises.

    On the other hand, if we have an agreement on the statement "It's in society's best interest to have a healthy population and functioning economy," we have a premise on which to debate health care, and how to achieve those goals. And I'd be happy to discuss the economics and practicality of various health care systems, but every time someone shrieks "ZOMG THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!11" they are not making a logical argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    But by appealing to the majority to show yourself to be correct or "more" correct, you're simply appealing to the stronger faction, and as I said, that's just "might makes right." But I appreciate your illustrating my point for me.
    Nope, I'm merely trying to find a premise which we both share. Have I found one? Or do you disagree with the premise that it's in society's best interest to have a healthy population and functioning economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Hardly. What I'm expecting you to do is read what I write and deal with it as written. I know you're capable of it. You're just choosing not to do it.
    When you decide to make LOGICAL arguments instead of arguments based on your own personal morality (which you automatically expect me to adopt), then we can debate the issue more intelligently.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-22-09 at 04:36 PM.
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  8. #178
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I am fascinated by the argument that claiming what you earn should belong to you as being mindless dogma.

    Do you support any form of government whatsoever? Any form of taxes whatsoever?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-22-09 at 04:37 PM.
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Clearly you don't agree with the idea that it's inherently unfair for people to die because they can't afford health care, possibly through no fault of their own.
    How about those who die waiting for a critical operation that wasn't available because the Government limits specialists and the number of doctors who are able to perform such operations to control costs?

    I am constantly fascinated with the argument that people are dying BECAUSE they donít have Government provided healthcare while ignoring ACTUAL cases of people dying because the care they needed was not available to them because of Government provided healthcare.

    But I am not surprised when people who promote the absurd notion that we only have TWO choices in the world and attempt to suggest that ONLY the Government can provide for its citizens and the citizens are incapable of providing for themselves.

    It is almost as asinine as President Obama and his staffers trying to claim that it is REPUBLICANS who are preventing them from getting their way in this debate or that REPUBLICANS don't have a plan or are the party of NO.

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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do you support any form of government whatsoever? Any form of taxes whatsoever?
    Yes I do as a matter of fact; is there a point here?

    Interesting, my e-mail had this part of your comment which you apparently edited: "If the answer is yes, kindly STFU. "
    Last edited by Truth Detector; 09-22-09 at 05:02 PM.

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