View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctorís other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #161
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn Monroe View Post
    Have you ever looked at your pay stub? You don't get all that you earn, and some of it is not debatable, you have to have it taken out. Now people who work under the table don't, and there are a lot of them, but those that work for wages do. I could see using this argument if we were living in the '30's, but this is the 21st century and a lot has changed. We are more likely to help others than back then. We've evolved.
    And if I had ever argued that there should be no taxes, you might have something.
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

  2. #162
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Among those intuitive rights is the right to life even if a society must pool some resources to make that possible.
    There's no construct of natural rights where this is true.
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

  3. #163
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And your version of morality says the opposite.
    When have I expounded on my version of morality?

    The Gospel According to Goobieman. Once again, I'm not hearing any logical arguments from you....
    Thsi is, of course, a blatant lie.

    But then, it appears that all you guys have, when the difficult questions are put to you. are red herrings, avoidances, and lies.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 09-22-09 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #164
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm no. Goobieman is the one shrieking about the immorality and unfairness of other views; the burden is on HIM to show why his moral view is superior.
    Proof positive that YOU arent paying attention.

    I have not expressed a moral view; I have asked you, repeatedly, how it is you think you can impose YOUR morailuty on others.

    A question you have not addressed.

    I disagree. Have a trump card? Or shall we abandon this senseless argument about which is more "fair" and instead focus on which actually works?
    Yes... lets disregard the inconvience of having to support the propriety of your position, all in the name of getting things done.

  5. #165
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And if I had ever argued that there should be no taxes, you might have something.
    You are instead arguing against this specific tax, not because you are against taxation, only because it does not fit your belief system.

    And yet, "hidden taxes" in the form of health care cost inflation do not seem to bother you the least bit.

    So i must ask. Why is it ok for instances of market failure to push up the cost of health care, but it is not ok to tax a particular income demographic to internalize this externality?

    Why do fat people, smokers, and unhealthy people get to infringe on other peoples ability to aquire health care?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  6. #166
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Among those intuitive rights is the right to life even if a society must pool some resources to make that possible.
    This is simply incorrect. Rights are not positive obligations on other people, rather, they are negative obligations, in that they require the inaction of others. I cannot infringe upon your life, but this does not mean I must provide you the means to retain it. Rights are not entitlements.

    I dare say that you will have to leave if you don't like it.
    Yea, I should just leave because you don't know what rights are.

    So far as I know, there is no popular ground swell to abolish medicare/medicaid.
    I'm not concerned with popular sentiment. People are mostly stupid, and the Founders understood this, which is why they despised direct democracy / majority rule and instituted a representative republic. The tyranny of the majority is no less immoral than the tyranny of a few.

    The Nazi statement is dumb - not only is there no moral equivalency but there was no "majority opinion " about the treatment of Jews. When was there a vote in Germany on a policy of killing Jews??
    They voted for Hitler. His hatred of Jews was no secret. Either way, it doesn't really matter, since you could just take it as a hypothetical and the analogy would still hold. Simply because the majority wants to do something doesn't make it right; that's the only point he was trying to communicate, but I understand your insistence on ignoring that point, since it grossly undermines your argument.

  7. #167
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You are instead arguing against this specific tax, not because you are against taxation, only because it does not fit your belief system.

    And yet, "hidden taxes" in the form of health care cost inflation do not seem to bother you the least bit.

    So i must ask. Why is it ok for instances of market failure to push up the cost of health care, but it is not ok to tax a particular income demographic to internalize this externality?
    Except that health care cost inflation is not a tax; furthermore, you haven't demonstrated that said inflation is the cause of market failure.

    Why do fat people, smokers, and unhealthy people get to infringe on other peoples ability to aquire health care?
    Because liberals allow them to by forcing others to subsidize their health care costs?

  8. #168
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You are instead arguing against this specific tax, not because you are against taxation, only because it does not fit your belief system.
    No, actually, what I'm arguing is that "I've earned it" is a sufficient answer to the question "why are you entitled to this"? Conversely, I'm also arguing that to say having earned something doesn't mean you're entitled to it is just plain nuttery.
    It's not "tolerance" if you already approve of what you purport to "tolerate."

  9. #169
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is simply incorrect. Rights are not positive obligations on other people, rather, they are negative obligations, in that they require the inaction of others. I cannot infringe upon your life, but this does not mean I must provide you the means to retain it. Rights are not entitlements.
    This is exactly correct.

    Having a right does not in any way equate to also having the right to have others provide to you the means to exercise said right.

  10. #170
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Except that health care cost inflation is not a tax; furthermore, you haven't demonstrated that said inflation is the cause of market failure.
    It is currently illegal for a business to offer its employees health insurance, and charge higher premiums for the obese or smokers. This in turn naturally pushes the entire premium pool higher, as the risk associated with insuring the aggregate increases every time an obese smoker is added to the policy. Which begs the question: why does a healthy worker have to pay extra for an unhealthy worker?

    Now take for instance emergency room care being utilized by those who do not have health insurance, as primary physician care. Given the demand relationship in regards to health care (demand in this case has an undefined slope), even if there are serious injuries, sickness, etc..., the simple fact that the uninsured are guaranteed coverage (in ER) puts considerable cost pressures (both implicit and explicit) on the hospital. Implicit in the fact that time is a constraining factor, and sometimes mild conditions are neglected due to lack of coverage, and in turn become more serious/expensive (in regards to treatment).

    But the greatest instance of market failure is exemplified in the elderly population. Most statistics show that over 2/3 of a personís entire health care costs will be spent in their last year of life, and around 1/2 during their last month. Insurance actuaries are well aware of this. Just like pre existing conditions are too risky to insure (and rightly so), the majority of the elderly population would be required to purchase extremely expensive insurance in the absence of medicare. Again, given the relationship to demand, these high costs bare entirely on the consumer in the form of dead weight loss. How many senior citizens would be willing to pay $4,000/month on health care? Many seniors would instead go without (example of dead weight loss). Where would seniors without coverage go everytime they felt ill? My guess would be the ER.

    It is only rational for a firm to deny insurance coverage to the most risky cases. Are we to expect the elderly to just deal with it? Of course not; this is why medicare was created, to internalize the externality.

    This same argument can be applied to those with pre existing conditions, or for those who do not purchase health care. Yes, there are cases in which a personís pre existing conditions would not surface, thereby increasing the liability of a potential insurer. Conversely, there are those who forego insurance who never get sick, or wind up in the ER. But when you take the aggregates, realtiy dictates that pre existing conditions destroy your ability to obtain private coverage, and the people without insurance end up costing hospitals (ER) quite a bit of money.

    The solution is quite simple. Allow the market to operate where it does not fail, and that is in offering people insurance policies that are not in the highest risk category. Those who do not fit this mold, whether it is self inflicted (tobacco, McDoubles), pre existing, income based (when you lose your job you sometimes lose coverage as well) etc... to be offered a public option. Of course, insurance companies would need to obtain the right to deny anyone coverage on the basis of risk.

    This in turn allows the market to function in an efficient manner. Otherwise, there will be far too much market failure to keep prices from increasing by double digits every year.

    Because liberals allow them to by forcing others to subsidize their health care costs?
    Even the elderly?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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