View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

Voters
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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #151
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    His analogy was logically sound. Just because a majority of people want to do something does not make it right. His reference to Nazism is a legitimate illustration of this fact.
    The analogy only holds if you seriously believe that taxes are the moral equivalent of putting Jews into ovens.
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    What gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor?
    Do you deny the concept of natural rights? If so, please leave America and find a place more suited to your animalistic view of the world.

  3. #153
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The analogy only holds if you seriously believe that taxes are the moral equivalent of putting Jews into ovens.
    They don't have to be morally equivalent, only morally questionable.

    Just because a majority of people want to do something does not make it right. Do you agree or disagree?

  4. #154
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    They don't have to be morally equivalent, only morally questionable.
    Then it's a ridiculous analogy, and is exactly why most people roll their eyes whenever someone brings up the Nazis in a serious political discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Just because a majority of people want to do something does not make it right. Do you agree or disagree?
    Sure. But in a representative form of government, if the rest of society believes something is morally right, you need a better argument than "nuh-uh" if you want them to adopt your policy. So far I'm not hearing that...I'm just hearing a lot of people say "It's immoral because I say it is, and if you disagree then you're a communist."
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-22-09 at 02:51 AM.
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  5. #155
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Then it's a ridiculous analogy, and is exactly why most people roll their eyes whenever someone brings up the Nazis in a serious political discussion.
    The analogy perfectly illustrates why a majority opinion is not necessarily the right one, which is the only point he was trying to make. He wasn't trying to suggest a moral equivalence between the two scenarios, which is why your reference to Godwin's law doesn't make any sense.

    Sure. But in a representative form of government, if the rest of society believes something is morally right, you need a better argument than "nuh-uh" if you want them to adopt your policy. So far I'm not hearing that...I'm just hearing a lot of people say "It's immoral because I say it is, and if you disagree then you're a communist."
    Well, I think Harshaw has posed some relevant questions to you, some of which you seem reticent to address directly.

    Do you believe in the concept of private property? If so, then you must agree that your personal political view maintains that earning something necessarily entitles one to retain it. If not, then you could rightfully be referred to as a communist / socialist.

    Not that I'm terribly interested in the answer to that question, but I believe Harshaw had a point.

  6. #156
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The analogy perfectly illustrates why a majority opinion is not necessarily the right one, which is the only point he was trying to make. He wasn't trying to suggest a moral equivalence between the two scenarios, which is why your reference to Godwin's law doesn't make any sense.
    The analogy does not make sense unless you believe that the moral questions here are as clear-cut as they are for shoving people into ovens by the millions. If you don't believe there is any moral gray area between allowing people to die for an inefficient system with many problems that could be easily fixed, and taxing you a little more to pay for it, then that is YOUR problem. Most people are able to see a bit more nuance than that. Roughly 45-70% of Americans (depending on the poll and question) must be evil communists for supporting some sort of additional government intervention in health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Well, I think Harshaw has posed some relevant questions to you, some of which you seem reticent to address directly.
    If I seem reticent to address them, it is only because these silly moral discussions typically lead nowhere. There is absolutely no logical argument you can make if you're starting from the premise that everyone already accepts your moral values (when they clearly do not), which is why I rarely if ever frame my arguments in moral terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Do you believe in the concept of private property? If so, then you must agree that your personal political view maintains that earning something necessarily entitles one to retain it. If not, then you could rightfully be referred to as a communist / socialist.
    Sure I believe in private property. I just don't believe it supercedes all other concerns. For that matter, neither do you, if you support the existence of a military or police force or any type of government at all.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-22-09 at 03:26 AM.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Thing is Obama ran on government healthcare and he got elected by the people.

    Everybody knew this was coming, and that it was only a matter of time.

    If the Reps had put up a better candidate than McCain they may not have lost so big.

    We live in a society with a government because we need the government, and apparently a lot of people still need HC, so it's only logical this is the next step. Like it or lump it this is what is going to happen. Obama doesn't seem to care if he gets reelected. Maybe next time the people will be more cautious whom they elect, but that's doubtful.

    I'd say write to your Congressman if you don't want HC. That's the only option I see.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

  8. #158
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    If you don't agree that someone's entitled to something because they've earned it, then basic communication isn't even possible, because part of the definition of "earning" something is that you're entitled to it.

    And I'll repeat that another thousand times; it won't make it any less true.

    If you've earned something, you're entitled to it, because that's what "earned" means. That will not change simply to please you.
    Have you ever looked at your pay stub? You don't get all that you earn, and some of it is not debatable, you have to have it taken out. Now people who work under the table don't, and there are a lot of them, but those that work for wages do. I could see using this argument if we were living in the '30's, but this is the 21st century and a lot has changed. We are more likely to help others than back then. We've evolved.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

  9. #159
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Do you deny the concept of natural rights? If so, please leave America and find a place more suited to your animalistic view of the world.
    Among those intuitive rights is the right to life even if a society must pool some resources to make that possible. I dare say that you will have to leave if you don't like it. So far as I know, there is no popular ground swell to abolish medicare/medicaid.

    The Nazi statement is dumb - not only is there no moral equivalency but there was no "majority opinion " about the treatment of Jews. When was there a vote in Germany on a policy of killing Jews??

  10. #160
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Translation: "I'm going to shriek the same thing over and over again instead of putting forth a rational argument.
    Pretending again and again that I didn't make a rational argument doesn't mean I didn't make one. But, when you misrepresent what I write in such a way:

    And I expect you to agree with all of my premises without question or explanation, or I'll call you a communist."
    I really expect no less from you. I asked if you if you believe private property exists -- and that if you don't, then you shouldn't complain if people say you're a socialist or a communist.

    That's what I said. Deal with what I actually wrote, or don't bother with it.


    OK. Your personal view is that your property rights always trump every other possible concern regarding anything. My view is that sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Are we clear now?
    No, we're not; I didn't say that, and you know that I didn't. If this is what you have to do -- to misrepresent what I say so blatantly -- then you might as well just concede the argument. Because there's no way you don't understand that this is what you're doing.



    Then arguing over which is more "fair" is meaningless, as it isn't a logical debate and merely a debate over semantics and personal moral values that you cannot prove.
    It is, isn't it? But I didn't make that argument.


    You're arguing that you have a right to keep every dime you earn, which trumps all other concerns, because you say it does. And anyone who disagrees is a communist.
    Seeing as you must know this isn't what I said, and I already dealt with it above, there's not much point in repeating myself here.



    That's fine. But I think most people of any political ideology would agree with the following statement (or a similar one): "It is in society's best interest to have a healthy population and a functioning economy." If you disagree, that is your prerogative. You advocate that view, I'll advocate my view that it *is* in society's best interest, and may the best man win at the voting booth.
    Even if I agree with it, it doesn't make your preferred outcome correct.

    But by appealing to the majority to show yourself to be correct or "more" correct, you're simply appealing to the stronger faction, and as I said, that's just "might makes right." But I appreciate your illustrating my point for me.


    If, on the other hand, we can agree on that statement, then we can discuss things like economics and sociology and figure out if a given policy is actually practical. But focusing on values-related things like which is most "fair" is meaningless, since it is based on personal values that do NOT easily translate from one person to another. It inevitably results in you not actually making any logical arguments. You're just repeating the same things and expecting me to agree with them, or calling me names if I don't.
    Hardly. What I'm expecting you to do is read what I write and deal with it as written. I know you're capable of it. You're just choosing not to do it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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