View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

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42. You may not vote on this poll
  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #141
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Uhhhhh . . . because you've earned it, and it's yours.
    Repeating the same thing over and over is not a logical argument, and this is exactly the problem I have with these moral arguments. This is why I suggest we dispense with these silly discussions that have nothing to do with logic or reason, and instead focus on things that do (like economics and sociology).

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Are you seriously arguing otherwise? Is what's yours yours or not? Does private property exist or not?
    Nope, I am not arguing one way or the other. I am asking you (this applies to Goobieman as well) to logically demonstrate that your moral view of "fair" is superior to all other moral views, and if you cannot, then to stop asking questions that cannot be answered via logic, reason, or debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    If you say it does, then there's your answer. You inherently have a right to it because it's yours.

    If you say it doesn't, then I don't want to hear much complaining about people saying you're a socialist or a communist.
    Wow, another tautology coupled with another ad hominem attack! Two logical fallacies all in one paragraph. Are you ready to abandon this silly belief that your morals are inherently superior to everyone else's yet, or are you going to prove your case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    There is not an answer you will find satisfactory here. Of course, it's a Pyrrhic victory for you at best, because it also means you can't credibly argue that any moral view is superior to any other moral view, so the only way anything can be decided is by who's stronger. Is that the road you want to go down?
    Nope. I suggest that since you have no credible reason why your moral values are better than mine, and I have no credible reason why my moral values are better than yours, that neither of us brings up our personal morality as a justification for our political views, and we instead discuss which policy makes more economic/sociological/practical sense. You know...things that CAN be observed, empirically demonstrated, and debated.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-21-09 at 09:01 PM.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    this is a silly argument, to "have earned" something means you "deserve" it, you are more "worthy" of it than anyone else, you "merit" it. it is not a moral view, it is a fact.

  3. #143
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Repeating the same thing over and over is not a logical argument, and this is exactly the problem I have with these moral arguments. This is why I suggest we dispense with these silly discussions that have nothing to do with logic or reason, and instead focus on things that do (like economics and sociology).
    If you don't agree that someone's entitled to something because they've earned it, then basic communication isn't even possible, because part of the definition of "earning" something is that you're entitled to it.

    And I'll repeat that another thousand times; it won't make it any less true.

    If you've earned something, you're entitled to it, because that's what "earned" means. That will not change simply to please you.


    Nope, I am not arguing one way or the other. I am asking you (this applies to Goobieman as well) to logically demonstrate that your moral view of "fair" is superior to all other moral views, and if you cannot, then to stop asking questions that cannot be answered via logic, reason, or debate.
    Oh, I'm sorry if I'm not letting you lead me into an argument that I'm not making, to ground where you'd prefer to be, but you don't get to dictate that for me.



    Wow, another tautology coupled with another ad hominem attack! Two logical fallacies all in one paragraph.
    There's no ad hominem. If you claim there's no private property, then you subscribe to socialistic or communistic views. That's simple fact. I gave you the choice to say for yourself what you're claiming.


    Are you ready to abandon this silly belief that your morals are inherently superior to everyone else's yet
    I never once claimed they were. You go right ahead and show where I did.


    or are you going to prove your case?
    And which "case" is that? Do you even know what I'm arguing? If so, state it.


    Nope. I suggest that since you have no credible reason why your moral values are better than mine, and I have no credible reason why my moral values are better than yours, that neither of us brings up our personal morality as a justification for our political views, and we instead discuss which policy makes more economic/sociological/practical sense. You know...things that CAN be observed, empirically demonstrated, and debated.
    Yes. And as I said, if no morality is superior to any other, then deciding things by who's stronger is every bit as legit as any other method you can come up with. You don't think so? Why not? Why is your method better? Because it's more "practical"? Practical to do what? The things you want done, because of your own sense of morality?

    Try again. You can't argue that someone else's morality is no better than yours and then claim your preferred state of being is the proper one, because that, too, is based in morality. There is no goal you could possibly state here which isn't morally based.
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  4. #144
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    this is a silly argument, to "have earned" something means you "deserve" it, you are more "worthy" of it than anyone else, you "merit" it. it is not a moral view, it is a fact.
    Correct. I can't even imagine how someone expects to get anywhere with that.
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  5. #145
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Here's another point on keeping what you've earned.

    I work my butt off and earn X dollars.

    The gov't comes along and taxes half of what I made to pay for other's whatever.

    This pisses me off, so I quit working and go on Welfare. Why bust my butt to make 1/2 X when GovCo will provide me with a place to live, food, medical care, and some cash, and I can sit around and chill?

    Now, I am not earning anything. Not only am I deprived of earning my own living and the production of my labor, now the gov't is deprived of the revenue they used to get off me, AND they're now paying me to sit on the couch.

    Does this sound like a desirable outcome? No? Then this is one good reason why taxes need to be light and spending needs to be reasonable, and why socialism isn't very effective.

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  6. #146
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    this is a silly argument, to "have earned" something means you "deserve" it, you are more "worthy" of it than anyone else, you "merit" it. it is not a moral view, it is a fact.
    No, what is silly is for some to contend that one point of view is self evident

    If you live in this country and make a good living because we have an excellent judicial system, roads, infrastructure, military might etc,: you pay your dues in taxes for the privilege. You earned something in partnership with the rest of us.

    For some it is self evident that a person should NOTbe allowed to die even if they haven't the resources to pay for health care.

    For some, a tax confiscated by government to pay for such care is morally more reprehensible than allowing someone to die.

    You choose.

    200 years ago, things were valued more than people and it was perfectly acceptable to hang someone for the crime of destroying property. The moral compass has shifted ...for some.

  7. #147
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Somehow I'll bet if it got down to the nitty gritty, a doctor would not turn you away, but maybe work out an arrangement.
    Working out an arrangement is fine, as long as it's reasonable to both parties. For instance, if I have a disease which runs me $100,000 in medical bills, I don't think it's fair that my house is confiscated and i'm in the poorhouse for being unable to pay. The problem isn't that most Americans are unwilling to pay, it's that they are unable to. Furthermore, it isn't like Americans who come down with expensive illnesses made the voluntary choice to contract those diseases. Nor would they likely survive without medical assistance.

    A friend of mine went hiking earlier this year, and was bitten by a copperhead. He was taken to the emergency room, and because the bite was above the knee, he was given a shot of antivenom. Since he's uninsured, he's expected to pay the bill in full. Now, I could see if the bill was something reasonable - say $1,000, $2,000, or $3,000 dollars. That'd be a difficult expense for him, but he could swing a monthly cost if he made a lot of cuts. Unfortunately, the cost of that shot was $11,000. That's just for the shot, not his entire medical bill. So working as a waiter struggling to pay for school and a small apartment, he now has the additional cost of forking over the cash for an antivenom shot and a hospital visit.

    As harsh a payment as this may seem to someone making a waiter's salary, it could have been much worse. Suppose it had been something like cancer? What then? Should he be expected to voluntarily refuse treatment because he wouldn't be able to afford it? Or should they treat him, charge him anyway and bleed him dry for whatever he has - take his old car, any possessions he has, and leave him busted and in bankruptcy? Or even worse, should he just be flat-out refused treatment, and left to die because he wouldn't be able to afford it?

    Sorry, I don't see any of those as fair, which is why I chose option 1 as the least fair of any of those choices.
    Last edited by Singularity; 09-22-09 at 12:55 AM.

  8. #148
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    If you don't agree that someone's entitled to something because they've earned it, then basic communication isn't even possible, because part of the definition of "earning" something is that you're entitled to it.

    And I'll repeat that another thousand times; it won't make it any less true.

    If you've earned something, you're entitled to it, because that's what "earned" means. That will not change simply to please you.
    Translation: "I'm going to shriek the same thing over and over again instead of putting forth a rational argument. And I expect you to agree with all of my premises without question or explanation, or I'll call you a communist."

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    There's no ad hominem. If you claim there's no private property, then you subscribe to socialistic or communistic views. That's simple fact. I gave you the choice to say for yourself what you're claiming.
    OK. Your personal view is that your property rights always trump every other possible concern regarding anything. My view is that sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Are we clear now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    I never once claimed they were. You go right ahead and show where I did.
    Then arguing over which is more "fair" is meaningless, as it isn't a logical debate and merely a debate over semantics and personal moral values that you cannot prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    And which "case" is that? Do you even know what I'm arguing? If so, state it.
    You're arguing that you have a right to keep every dime you earn, which trumps all other concerns, because you say it does. And anyone who disagrees is a communist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Yes. And as I said, if no morality is superior to any other, then deciding things by who's stronger is every bit as legit as any other method you can come up with. You don't think so? Why not? Why is your method better? Because it's more "practical"? Practical to do what? The things you want done, because of your own sense of morality?

    Try again. You can't argue that someone else's morality is no better than yours and then claim your preferred state of being is the proper one, because that, too, is based in morality. There is no goal you could possibly state here which isn't morally based.
    That's fine. But I think most people of any political ideology would agree with the following statement (or a similar one): "It is in society's best interest to have a healthy population and a functioning economy." If you disagree, that is your prerogative. You advocate that view, I'll advocate my view that it *is* in society's best interest, and may the best man win at the voting booth.

    If, on the other hand, we can agree on that statement, then we can discuss things like economics and sociology and figure out if a given policy is actually practical. But focusing on values-related things like which is most "fair" is meaningless, since it is based on personal values that do NOT easily translate from one person to another. It inevitably results in you not actually making any logical arguments. You're just repeating the same things and expecting me to agree with them, or calling me names if I don't.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-22-09 at 02:37 AM.
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  9. #149
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Oh puleeze. I.M.O. the first person that mentions Nazis in any debate has just lost the debate.

    It is such a a cliched act of desperation.
    What if the debate is about Nazis?

  10. #150
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yo Godwin I know you makin your law, and I'ma let you finish, but Murphy had one of the best laws of all time.
    His analogy was logically sound. Just because a majority of people want to do something does not make it right. His reference to Nazism is a legitimate illustration of this fact.

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