View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #131
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You can't be serious.
    I -earned- it.
    Thus, no one else has rightful claim, except in cases where I have agreed to give them such (like a mortgage, et al).

    Unless, of course, you -want- to argue that the fact that you earned something does not in any way entitle to retain that something.
    You guys crack me up.

    I just turned the question around and HORRORS: "You can't be serious"

    You ask a question REPEATEDLY and w/o accepting the answer no matter how intuitively moral and right it may seem to most people.'
    And you claim, "Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad populum"

    I ask you a question which actually has no particular overriding rationale- it is just intuitive to you.
    So you support your claim with:

    Denial of goods and services due to inability to pay is the societal norm, one common across virtually all societies.

    Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad populum.

    As it happens, The "west" has largely wiped out societies who once had a completely different idea about property and the primacy of property rights. Tahitians, for example, prior to the European invasion, had no word for "stealing". In an environment of abundance there was no need to protect "possessions". In fact things were meant to circulate. Hoarding was condemned.
    Our cultural attitude comes from an environment of scarcity. So we are hoarders...but it is not a god given moral code.

  2. #132
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Wow....simply wow. If this is not the definition of Liberals and socialism, I don't know what is.
    I asked a question
    If this is not proof that education systems are failing our citizens, I don’t know what else is.

    I am questioning your ability to read since I did not state my opinion about property rights. I asked a question.

  3. #133
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Frankly, all the choices suck.

    For someone to suffer or die because they don't have enough money sucks. Maybe they're not poor because they're lazy; maybe they're poor because they're taking care of elderly parents and small children, even though they're working their butt off at a crappy job.

    The doctor not getting paid sucks; he probably went way into debt to get educated and most doctors I know work their butts off. His liability insurance costs more than most of us make in a year. He deserves to get paid. Societally, doctors not getting paid means less people choosing to be doctors, in the long run. Who would want to go 200k in debt and spent 10 years becoming a doctor, and not get paid well? Very few...

    Other patients and insurance co's taking up the slack, our current solution, sucks. When I had a coloscopy (11 grand!) I estimate that my insurance company paid for two Medicare (fixed price) patients and one illegal immigrant with a false ID as well as just me. Part of this is a result of gov't sticking its nose into the (not really very) free market for medical services, with it's you-have-no-choice-fixed-price Medicare and Medicaid.

    Government... well, government has this tendency to screw things up even worse almost every time it sticks its nose into the private sector, so that option also sucks.

    Fortunately there are alternatives. There are medical charities like St. Lukes, and many doctors who donate some of their time to free clinics and charity hospitals.

    It is a complicated issue, and there is no perfect solution...however, we could do better. Letting healthcare be more of a free market would probably help; changing the orientation of insurance from covering every office visit for a sniffle, to covering hospitalization, expensive proceedures, and "catastrophic" care, would probably help; encouraging medical charity like St Lukes (with tax breaks for docs who participate) would help; tort reform would reduce medical costs I'm sure.

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  4. #134
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Goobieman answered the question -- "what gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor" -- quite directly. He said "they -earned- it."

    Disagree with him if you like, but he gave a reason. Don't pretend he didn't. Instead, explain how that's not good enough of a reason.

    To me, the question is as vapid, though, as asking "what gives anyone the right to retain all of the blood in their bodies"?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #135
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Goobieman answered the question -- "what gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor" -- quite directly. He said "they -earned- it."

    Disagree with him if you like, but he gave a reason. Don't pretend he didn't. Instead, explain how that's not good enough of a reason.
    Umm no. Goobieman is the one shrieking about the immorality and unfairness of other views; the burden is on HIM to show why his moral view is superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    To me, the question is as vapid, though, as asking "what gives anyone the right to retain all of the blood in their bodies"?
    I disagree. Have a trump card? Or shall we abandon this senseless argument about which is more "fair" and instead focus on which actually works?
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  6. #136
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I voted for the first choice:



    That seems the least fair to me. Folks go to the doctor generally because they are sick, or there is some sort of a health emergency. Telling an individual that he/she won't be treated simply because they're unable to pay seems unreasonable to me.
    Somehow I'll bet if it got down to the nitty gritty, a doctor would not turn you away, but maybe work out an arrangement.
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  7. #137
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm no. Goobieman is the one shrieking about the immorality and unfairness of other views; the burden is on HIM to show why his moral view is superior.
    And he reason he gave vis-a-vis the question asked was that he earned it.

    (I believe I already said that.)



    I disagree. Have a trump card? Or shall we abandon this senseless argument about which is more "fair" and instead focus on which actually works?
    This has what to do with my statement? Sounds to me like you're simply trying to dredge up an earlier exchange.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #138
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And he reason he gave vis-a-vis the question asked was that he earned it.

    (I believe I already said that.)
    That's not a reason, that's a tautology. Why does earning something inherently give you a right to it? And why does that moral view supercede all other views? Forgive me if I don't merely accept your and Goobieman's position on the issue as gospel.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-21-09 at 08:43 PM.
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  9. #139
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why does earning something inherently give you a right to it?
    Uhhhhh . . . because you've earned it, and it's yours.

    Are you seriously arguing otherwise? Is what's yours yours or not? Does private property exist or not?

    If you say it does, then there's your answer. You inherently have a right to it because it's yours.

    If you say it doesn't, then I don't want to hear much complaining about people saying you're a socialist or a communist.


    And why does that moral view supercede all other views?
    There is not an answer you will find satisfactory here. Of course, it's a Pyrrhic victory for you at best, because it also means you can't credibly argue that any moral view is superior to any other moral view, so the only way anything can be decided is by who's stronger. Is that the road you want to go down?
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  10. #140
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Should a doctor work for free?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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