View Poll Results: What is the least fair outcome of this, and why?

Voters
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  • I do not receive those goods/services because I cannot pay

    16 38.10%
  • The doctor does not receive compensation for the goods/services he provided

    12 28.57%
  • The doctor’s other patients foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    5 11.90%
  • The taxpayers foot the bill for the goods/services I received

    9 21.43%
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Thread: Unfair Practices in Health Care

  1. #121
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Look, I made you a deal.
    You can take it, or you can leave it. Your call.
    I will "take it" that you are afraid to answer a question, much in the same fashion as you accuse Kandahar. Why is that? You cannot possibly answer without coming off as inconsistent maybe... :-)
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  2. #122
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I will "take it" that you are afraid to answer a question, much in the same fashion as you accuse Kandahar. Why is that? You cannot possibly answer without coming off as inconsistent maybe... :-)
    Apparently you aren't REALLY interested in a conversation regarding pigouvian taxation, you just want to harass me.

    How very pedestrian.

    Ok then. You had your chance. Offer rescinded.

  3. #123
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    But, you do -- you state that the right to health care trumps the right of those forced to pay for that health care to the fruits borne of their own labor in that the health care for those that cannot pay for it themsleves should be paid for by others
    I have stated no such thing. I have no opinion on which "right" trumps which other "right." The whole subject really doesn't interest me. My position is based on which policy I think will actually WORK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    And so, you'll have to answer the question.
    Or run away.
    Your call.
    You do realize that just shrieking "You didn't answer the question" in response to my answers to your questions, doesn't magically make my answers disappear? My answers may not be the ones you were hoping for, but that is YOUR problem, not mine.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-18-09 at 04:49 PM.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have stated no such thing. I have no opinion on which "right" trumps which other "right."
    Not specifically as a direct quote, but in a defacto manner, as I described,

    You DO state that the health care for those that cannot pay for it themsleves should be paid for by others. This places the 'right' to health care at a higher level of order than the right to retain the fruits borne of their own labor -- thus 'trumping' it.

    The whole subject really doesn't interest me. My position is based on which policy I think will actually WORK
    Irrelevant -- the question I asked and the question you havent answered is the foundation for that policy; to defend the policy, you must address the question.

    You do realize that just shrieking "You didn't answer the question" in response to my answers to your questions, doesn't magically make my answers disappear?
    You DO realize that while you may -respond- to the questions in whatever manner you wish, not all responses actually address the matter in question - and so, until your responses DO address that matter, you still havent answered the question.

    That is, I have been asking you for the sum of 2+2 and you have been answeing "Orange!"

    And so, you'll have to answer the question.
    Or run away. Again.
    Your call.

  5. #125
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    So...?
    Read my answer. Denying someone the right to live simply because they cannot afford it is classified as detrimental, is it not? Therefore, health care is often an emergency service. If you are, say, bit by a rattlesnake, the doctor treats you, and voila! Your life is saved. Your argument is that if you cannot afford to get the shot to save your life, the doctor shouldn't save your life. I imagine you feel the same way across the board, no? Some uninsured guy gets cancer, they can't afford to pay, what then? I say treat them, and to hell with the cost. You say let them die - a position that I find morally suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I SEE.. a "moral obligation"...
    Since when is it OK to force a version of morality onto others?
    And then, what's your argument against someone forcing their morality on you?
    Let me clear up your confusion. First off, you don't 'force' morality onto others - one either acts morally or they do not. While disagreement exists regarding moral questions and they are often recalcitrant to resolution, one hardly says that morality is being forced. If you are being forced to do something, the argument can successfully be made that you are not acting out of morality, but out of something else. Addressing the subjectiveness of morality, though, you believe denial of health care is not a moral issue. Folks like me think the opposite. While there are deep and widespread moral disagreements regarding the truth or justification of moral judgments as not being absolute, there are those who believe it is relative to some group of persons. By definition, I do not 'force' morality onto you anymore than you force morality onto me. You simply act within morality or you don't, and what constitutes morality to the relativist is the basis of judgement upon the agent (ie, if he/she is acting within his/her moral beliefs).

    So yes, I would say that it is a moral obligation. If you disagree, then I take it your subjective version of morality says that we must not act to save the lives of those who cannot afford it when it comes to health care, correct?

    If not, explain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You didnt answer the question:
    How does your 'right' to health care trump their right to keep the fruits of their labor?
    On the contrary, I answered the question perfectly. If you are dying and there is something I can do to prevent it, shouldn't I do so? One can say that is acting out of a moral obligation to you. But regarding the 'fruits of your labor', do you think that it is immoral to have the government tax you for roads, police protection, and military defense? If not, what is the difference between this and being taxed for health care?

  6. #126
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post

    This places the 'right' to health care at a higher level of order than the right to retain the fruits borne of their own labor -- thus 'trumping' it.
    What gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor?

  7. #127
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Read my answer. Denying someone the right to live simply because they cannot afford it is classified as detrimental, is it not?...I say treat them, and to hell with the cost. You say let them die - a position that I find morally suspect.
    Ok, so your version of mroality says that your right to health care trumps the my right to keep the fruits of my labor. 10-4.

    Let me clear up your confusion. First off, you don't 'force' morality onto others - one either acts morally or they do not.
    On the contrary -- by forcing me to provide you with health care, given your argument above, you are most certainly forcing your mirality on me.

    If you are being forced to do something, the argument can successfully be made that you are not acting out of morality, but out of something else.
    In this case, it would be out of the imposition of your morality onto me.

    Addressing the subjectiveness of morality, though, you believe denial of health care is not a moral issue. Folks like me think the opposite.
    However I morally regard the isue, the fact is that you have your version of morality and are more than happy to force others to confirm to same by forcing me to pay for the health care of others.

    This is why I asked:
    Since when is it OK to force a version of morality onto others?
    And then, what's your argument against someone forcing their morality on you?

    You may now answer those questions.

  8. #128
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    What gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor?
    You can't be serious.
    I -earned- it.
    Thus, no one else has rightful claim, except in cases where I have agreed to give them such (like a mortgage, et al).

    Unless, of course, you -want- to argue that the fact that you earned something does not in any way entitle to retain that something.

  9. #129
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    What gives anyone the right to retain all the fruits of their labor?
    Wow....simply wow. If this is not the definition of Liberals and socialism, I don't know what is.

    This is what I have always argued about Socialists; the think that what is earned through one’s labor is not really theirs, but actually should belong to the “State” which knows better how best to apply those earnings for the benefit of OTHERS rather than allowing those who earn it decide for themselves.

    The simple version of the above statements for those who like things simple is this; what you earn is not yours and be thankful for that which the State decides you can keep.

    If this is not proof that education systems are failing our citizens, I don’t know what else is.


  10. #130
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    Re: Unfair Practices in Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Ok, so your version of mroality says that your right to health care trumps the my right to keep the fruits of my labor. 10-4.
    And your version of morality says the opposite. So unless you can somehow show that your view of morality is BETTER than everyone else's, why don't you just stop shrieking about it and instead discuss which system actually WORKS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    You can't be serious.
    I -earned- it.
    Thus, no one else has rightful claim, except in cases where I have agreed to give them such (like a mortgage, et al).
    The Gospel According to Goobieman. Once again, I'm not hearing any logical arguments from you...just more parroting of mindless dogma, with the expectation that everyone should automatically agree with you.
    Are you coming to bed?
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