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Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #81
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    The tired, the poor, the sick were here to advance their futures with determination and hard work. They weren't subject to abortion so I am not sure how you draw the parallel there.

    I also don't understand how you think that a dependent, damaged undesirable born to a crack addicted mother, neglectful father, and with a host of illnesses relating to it's birth that will burden the state with high costs of medical treatment will stimulate the economy.

    I'm also not sure how a 4th or 5th baby born to an unwed mother who will become an 18 year recipient of state assistance is supposed to stimulate the economy. I'm also not sure how the child born to the mother who didn't want her and ends up a ward of the state is supposed to stimulate the economy.
    You are making a rather erroneous assumption, one of which is not supported by empirical evidence.

    From the study: An Economic Analysis of Abortion: The Effect of Travel Cost on Teenagers.

    The authors find that a teen with a higher wage (i.e., a higher opportunity cost associated with time out of the labor force to raise a child) is more likely to have an abortion. In addition, teenagers who live in poverty are shown to be less likely to abort a pregnancy. Leibowitz et al. (1986) use individual data on the first pregnancy of unmarried teenage women in Ventura County, California: teens who are enrolled in school and those who perform well in school are shown to be more likely to have an abortion; since schooling is a measure of the opportunity cost of giving birth in terms of future wages, this result implies that the value of a teen's time is a factor in the teenage abortion decision. Ohsfeldt and Gohmann (1994) use state-le vel data to show that the price of abortion services and income are negatively related to teenage rates of abortion and pregnancy. Hass-Wilson (1996) gives evidence that U.S. states with parental notification and consent laws and those with more Medicaid funding restrictions have lower teenage abortion rates; because these laws effectively raise the cost to a teenager of obtaining an abortion, these results imply that abortion cost is important in the abortion decision process for teens. Lundberg and Plotnick (1995) use the NLSY and find that teens who live in states that offer funding for abortions have a higher probability of aborting a pregnancy.
    The literature shows that abortion restrictions lead to fewer abortions among teenage women, possibly due to an increase in the monetary or psychic cost of obtaining an abortion. There can be legal restrictions, such as parental consent laws, or geographical restrictions in the number or location of abortion facilities. The research on parental consents laws implies that raising the cost of abortion services, either by reducing teens' accessibility to abortion services or by increasing the psychic cost associated with gaining parental consent, reduces the number of teen abortions. Likewise, reducing the availability of abortion services effectively raises the travel cost associated with acquiring an abortion; if the demand for abortions is sensitive to this price increase, then restricting availability will reduce the quantity of abortions demanded. Results from Haas-Wilson (1996) and Lundberg and Plotnick (1995) suggest that teens who live in states with greater abortion availability are more likely to have an abortion. In a related study, Kane and Staiger (1996) use county-level data from U.S. states to show that local abortion availability affects the teen birthrate; however, the authors do not estimate the relationship between local abortion availability and the teen abortion rate. Dayek and Smith (1976) and Brown and Jewell (1996) investigate the connection between local abortion availability and abortion demand, but neither study focuses on teenage women.
    Source: The Social Science Journal:January 01, 2000 : JEWELL, R. TODD; BROWN, ROBERT W.

    An abstract of the entire source can be found here: ScienceDirect - The Social Science Journal : An economic analysis of abortion: the effect of travel cost on teenagers

    So while your assumption is that abortions are preventative of lower income/drug dependent families having children, the evidence points to the contrary.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The major contributor to the sudden stagnation in economic growth is due to the flattening of the population growth rate. This can be caused by a multitude of factors, namely birth rate, although immigration rate/policy is also integral to the discussion. Although common among developed economies, increasing population has been considered the most effective way to spur economic growth.

    Which is my point BTW...
    Last edited by Kushinator; 09-10-09 at 03:54 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  2. #82
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You are making a rather erroneous assumption, one of which is not supported by empirical evidence.

    From the study: An Economic Analysis of Abortion: The Effect of Travel Cost on Teenagers.





    Source: The Social Science Journal:January 01, 2000 : JEWELL, R. TODD; BROWN, ROBERT W.

    An abstract of the entire source can be found here: ScienceDirect - The Social Science Journal : An economic analysis of abortion: the effect of travel cost on teenagers

    So while your assumption is that abortions are preventative of lower income/drug dependent families having children, the evidence points to the contrary.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The major contributor to the sudden stagnation in economic growth is due to the flattening of the population growth rate. This can be caused by a multitude of factors, namely birth rate, although immigration rate/policy is also integral to the discussion. Although common among developed economies, increasing population has been considered the most effective way to spur economic growth.

    Which is my point BTW...
    You confine your research to teenage women. Broaden the scope to all abortion and I think the numbers may pan out differently.

    Either way, it's not the woman's responsibility to be so much breeding cattle for the economy.

  3. #83
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You confine your research to teenage women. Broaden the scope to all abortion and I think the numbers may pan out differently.
    Perhaps, although there is a strong correlation between teenage abortion and the lack of birth control be it access, ignorance, or a combination of the two.

    Either way, it's not the woman's responsibility to be so much breeding cattle for the economy.
    I do agree. But, it is also highly irresponsible for abortion to be used as a form of birth control.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Perhaps, although there is a strong correlation between teenage abortion and the lack of birth control be it access, ignorance, or a combination of the two.



    I do agree. But, it is also highly irresponsible for abortion to be used as a form of birth control.
    I agree on that count. However, that's between her and her doctor and not the federal treasury.

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    So yeah, let's put it out there -- if you can't pay, you don't get care -- and providers should be shielded from any liability on that score. That's putting responsibility where it belongs.
    OK, now we're getting somewhere. Now I expect you to actually defend that position, since you are asserting that it is a more practical alternative to requiring people to buy health insurance. Please answer the following questions about your system where hospitals can pick and choose who gets ER care.

    1. When someone is brought into the ER unconscious, should doctors be expected to treat them immediately? Or should be able to fish around the patient's pockets for an insurance card for a few minutes first?

    2. Let's say that someone in the ER is stabilized but unable to walk due to their illness/injury. It is then determined that the patient does not have insurance. What should hospitals do with them? Wheel the bed out to the street corner, put the patient on the curb, and wheel the bed back in?

    3. If doctors cannot find an insurance card on the patient, should they be allowed to assume the patient does not have insurance? If so, what happens when they do nothing and allow a patient to die...and it turns out the patient did have insurance? Are they liable for malpractice?

    4. Should hospitals ONLY be allowed to pick and choose ER patients based on their ability to pay (or perceived ability to pay)? Or should hospitals be able to reject patients for any reason they want / no reason at all?
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    In what fantasy world?
    Its -perfectly- possible to describe how your idea is terrible, regardless of ANY alternatives, as your idea stands on its own merits.
    That reminds me of Churchill's famous quote, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." Sadly, it seems obvious that the humor in this goes right over your head.

    No, political policies do NOT exist in a vacuum. If you don't have any BETTER solution, go away and let the adults talk.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-10-09 at 04:09 PM.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I agree on that count. However, that's between her and her doctor and not the federal treasury.
    There is evidence that states policy applications have been successful in reducing teen abortion.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That reminds me of Churchill's famous quote, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." But I don't suppose you see the humor in this quote, since in your mind all policies are just ideological matters that either fit your dogma or don't, rather than real-world ideas with real-world consequences.
    None of this in any way negates anything I said.

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I said and as you conveniently left out:

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the state.

    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?
    For the same reason your state government can punish you for drunk driving, even if you don't have an accident: Because your irresponsible behavior carries the strong potential of causing harm, even if that is not your intent.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, now we're getting somewhere. Now I expect you to actually defend that position, since you are asserting that it is a more practical alternative to requiring people to buy health insurance.
    No. I didn't.

    What I asserted is that it puts responsibility where it belongs.


    Please answer the following questions about your system where hospitals can pick and choose who gets ER care.

    1. When someone is brought into the ER unconscious, should doctors be expected to treat them immediately? Or should be able to fish around the patient's pockets for an insurance card for a few minutes first?

    2. Let's say that someone in the ER is stabilized but unable to walk due to their illness/injury. It is then determined that the patient does not have insurance. What should hospitals do with them? Wheel the bed out to the street corner, put the patient on the curb, and wheel the bed back in?

    3. If doctors cannot find an insurance card on the patient, should they be allowed to assume the patient does not have insurance? If so, what happens when they do nothing and allow a patient to die...and it turns out the patient did have insurance? Are they liable for malpractice?

    4. Should hospitals ONLY be allowed to pick and choose ER patients based on their ability to pay (or perceived ability to pay)? Or should hospitals be able to reject patients for any reason they want / no reason at all?
    Read what I said. I already dealt with these issues and the liability.

    But you did NOT answer MY question. That, however, is a recurring theme with you.

    For your convenience, here it is again. You say you don't hold taxpayers responsible; I say that's a pool of pure, unadulterated, yellow, steaming, liquified bull****.

    Thus, I said:

    So yeah, let's put it out there -- if you can't pay, you don't get care -- and providers should be shielded from any liability on that score. That's putting responsibility where it belongs. Now, argue against that without making taxpayers responsible. Tell me about social contracts, responsibility to your fellow man, compassion, all that, in such a way that doesn't make taxpayers responsible.
    So, deal with it, or don't -- but I'm not interested in changing the subject.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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