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Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #71
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    When your only solution is to transfer the costs of irresponsible people from innocent taxpayers to innocent hospitals, you A) cede any moral high ground you may think you have as a result of your *cough* pro-freedom view, and B) have to explain why your solution is more PRACTICAL then transferring the costs of irresponsible people to irresponsible people.
    That's not what I asked you. I asked you to explain why it's not "workable," especially when I mentioned several sources of possible funding for it.

    That you keep balking on that question -- here and in the other thread -- tells me you simply can't explain it.

    If you can, do so, in detail. Here or in the other thread.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's not what I asked you. I asked you to explain why it's not "workable," especially when I mentioned several sources of possible funding for it.
    No, the only source of funding you mentioned was hospitals. You may have used a lot of words and put commas between them, but your sources were essentially hospitals, hospitals, and hospitals.

    Why isn't it workable? Well, we'll skip right over the fact that the hospitals aren't to blame for their ER bills, since you obviously don't care (despite the fact that your heart bleeds for the irresponsible people who aren't to blame for the ER bills of other irresponsible people).

    How about the fact that if hospitals get stuck with the ER bills, they'll increase the cost of procedures, lay off their staff, not buy the high-tech new gizmo they need to treat cancer, and not pay their employees as much (thus reducing the quality of medical care).
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-10-09 at 12:10 AM.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, the only source of funding you mentioned was hospitals. You may have used a lot of words and put commas between them, but your sources were essentially hospitals, hospitals, and hospitals.
    Contingency plans, uninsured funds, "uninsured" insurance. Endowments, trusts, who knows? You make it sound like it'll all be crushing, unexpected expenses to come out of the general operating fund. Either you know that's a particularly vapid strawman, or you don't have much imagination.


    Why isn't it workable? Well, we'll skip right over the fact that the hospitals aren't to blame for their ER bills
    Neither are the taxpayers. Hospitals, at least, are in the business of providing care and accept certain risks as a matter of course.


    since you obviously don't care (despite the fact that your heart bleeds for the irresponsible people who aren't to blame for the ER bills of other irresponsible people).
    Oh, you're making me cry here. Really.


    How about the fact that if hospitals get stuck with the ER bills, they'll increase the cost of procedures, lay off their staff, not buy the high-tech new gizmo they need to treat cancer, and not pay their employees as much (thus reducing the quality of medical care).
    Not if they plan properly for it.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Contingency plans, uninsured funds, "uninsured" insurance.
    Let me translate all of these options for you:
    Hospitals, hospitals, and hospitals.

    They all result in increased expenses for the hospitals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Endowments, trusts, who knows?
    Those simply aren't enough to cover the tab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    You make it sound like it'll all be crushing, unexpected expenses to come out of the general operating fund. Either you know that's a particularly vapid strawman, or you don't have much imagination.
    Any of your incredibly diverse solutions boil down to the hospital paying more money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Neither are the taxpayers. Hospitals, at least, are in the business of providing care and accept certain risks as a matter of course.
    So the hospitals aren't responsible for it. The taxpayers aren't responsible for it. I agree. Hmm. Remind me again why you're opposed to making everyone cover their OWN expenses by mandating health insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Not if they plan properly for it.
    Translation:
    Not if the hospitals just pony up the cash for it.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Fining people without health insurance is compensating the state for the costs associated with emergency room deadbeats.
    As I said and as you conveniently left out:

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the state.

    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    To which, again, you have not presented any workable alternative.
    One need not present a workable alternative to a position to legitimately argue against that position.

  7. #77
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    One need not present a workable alternative to a position to legitimately argue against that position.
    Actually, yes you do. Because saying "Policy X is bad because of A" doesn't mean a goddamn thing if all the alternatives are worse.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Let me translate all of these options for you:
    Hospitals, hospitals, and hospitals.

    They all result in increased expenses for the hospitals.



    Those simply aren't enough to cover the tab.



    Any of your incredibly diverse solutions boil down to the hospital paying more money.



    So the hospitals aren't responsible for it. The taxpayers aren't responsible for it. I agree. Hmm. Remind me again why you're opposed to making everyone cover their OWN expenses by mandating health insurance?



    Translation:
    Not if the hospitals just pony up the cash for it.


    Simply repeating yourself does not make you correct.

    All your lip service to taxpayers "not being responsible" is bull****, and you know it is. If you truly thought they weren't responsible, you wouldn't want to make them responsible in the first place. And it's only because you make them responsible that they are.

    So yeah, let's put it out there -- if you can't pay, you don't get care -- and providers should be shielded from any liability on that score. That's putting responsibility where it belongs. Now, argue against that without making taxpayers responsible. Tell me about social contracts, responsibility to your fellow man, compassion, all that, in such a way that doesn't make taxpayers responsible.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Actually, yes you do. Because saying "Policy X is bad because of A" doesn't mean a goddamn thing if all the alternatives are worse.
    In what fantasy world?
    Its -perfectly- possible to describe how your idea is terrible, regardless of ANY alternatives, as your idea stands on its own merits.

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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I said and as you conveniently left out:

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the state.

    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?
    Still looking for an answer to this.

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