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Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #61
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    That could all be true, although it is arbitrary at best. What we do know though, is that the only way to stimulate economic growth during stagnate periods is with population expansion.
    Does that hold true today? Population expansion of primarily undereducated, malnourished and welfare bound doesn't suggest expansion of the economy in today's world.

    But, your response would be typical to the opinion of many American citizens when the massive waves of immigrants were coming ashore in the late 19th early 20th century. You know, the tired, poor, and sick
    True but back then the economy was radically different.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Fining people without health insurance is compensating the state for the costs associated with emergency room deadbeats.
    What a bunch of crap. $3800 is entirely arbitrary. You think that's "recompense" for someone who decides to go to an ER and get a few stitches? Or wouldn't be slightly more, oh, I don't know, just to see what the bill is and if, maybe, the person can compensate the hospital willingly?

    No -- slap 'em hard, the deadbeats. Give 'em what fer.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    What a bunch of crap. $3800 is entirely arbitrary.
    Of course it is. So what? All fines for anything are entirely arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    You think that's "recompense" for someone who decides to go to an ER and get a few stitches?
    I wouldn't be surprised if even a few stitches in the ER cost that much. But that's irrelevant, because you don't know if you're going to end up in the ER for a few stitches or for a five-million-dollar accident that leaves you in a coma for two months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Or wouldn't be slightly more, oh, I don't know, just to see what the bill is and if, maybe, the person can compensate the hospital willingly?
    No. Enough people will default that it's a problem. Just like uninsured drivers raise MY auto premium (so the law requires people to carry auto insurance)...just like criminals raise MY taxes (so the law can confiscate their property and/or force them to work). The government has every right to regulate people behaving irresponsibly, if their irresponsibility has a significant potential of imposing costs on other innocent people.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Of course it is. So what? All fines for anything are entirely arbitrary.
    Recompense is not. Besides, many fines have some relationship to the degree of the offense.



    I wouldn't be surprised if even a few stitches in the ER cost that much. But that's irrelevant, because you don't know if you're going to end up in the ER for a few stitches or for a five-million-dollar accident that leaves you in a coma for two months.
    Then this isn't recompense -- it's a blanket punishment.



    No. Enough people will default that it's a problem. Just like uninsured drivers raise MY auto premium (so the law requires people to carry auto insurance)...just like criminals raise MY taxes (so the law can confiscate their property and/or force them to work). The government has every right to regulate people behaving irresponsibly, if their irresponsibility has a significant potential of imposing costs on other innocent people.
    Which, again, only happens because YOU force it to happen. It doesn't happen by itself.

    Me? I think people who force the burden on taxpayers who don't want it should be the ones who pony up. That, at least, has an actual proximate cause involved.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Which, again, only happens because YOU force it to happen. It doesn't happen by itself.
    To which, again, you have not presented any workable alternative. And until you do, I'm assuming that you do not have one, so blaming *me* for mandatory ER care is ridiculous if it's the only practical policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Me? I think people who force the burden on taxpayers who don't want it should be the ones who pony up. That, at least, has an actual proximate cause involved.
    Then present a workable alternative. And no, pawning the costs off on the hospitals is not a workable alternative, it's just a cheap cop-out victimizing an easy target.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-09-09 at 06:54 PM.
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    To which, again, you have not presented any workable alternative. And until you do, I'm assuming that you do not have one, so blaming *me* for mandatory ER care is ridiculous if it's the only practical policy.

    Present a workable alternative or kvicherbitchin.
    Right. You've demonstrated that when you assume for yourself the role of sole and supreme arbiter of what's "workable," that's simply not possible.

    Tell you what -- when you do more than simply say "that won't work," we'll talk.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Right. You've demonstrated that when you assume for yourself the role of sole and supreme arbiter of what's "workable," that's simply not possible.

    Tell you what -- when you do more than simply say "that won't work," we'll talk.
    When your only solution is to transfer the costs of irresponsible people from innocent taxpayers to innocent hospitals, you A) cede any moral high ground you may think you have as a result of your *cough* pro-freedom view, and B) have to explain why your solution is more PRACTICAL then transferring the costs of irresponsible people to irresponsible people.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Jesus ****ing christ. Get fined for doing something legal? WTF? In what universe does that make sense?

    So, um, no. The government should most certainly not fine people for seeking medical treatment.

    They also should not fine people for simply living. (as it seems the thread has evolved into a different discussion)

  9. #69
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So here's the question. Do you feel the government has the power, or should, fine a woman for either having an abortion or choosing not to carry a child to term? Essentially, that women are completely free to do with their body as they wish, and their privacy is definitely respected.........but if you chose to not carry to term / to abort then the government fines you X amount of dollars, say to cover the costs of people who may be getting free abortions due to lack of financial means or to cover the loss of revenue the government will feel by not having an extra citizen come into this world.

    Would this be a breach of the right to privacy? Should the government be fining you for choosing not to do something that you believe effects your health?
    I think that before about 16-20 weeks it should not and after, unless you life is in danger, the penalties should be higher than a fine. So I guess no is the answer.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #70
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Late to the party.

    Yes, I think the government ought to be able to do this. If they have concerns that the practice of abortion is harmful to our nation, and that a reasonable fine will reduce the harm being done, then such a policy would be justified. On moral grounds, I have no objections whatsoever to women being required to pay tax on abortion-- even on a sliding income scale-- as long as such taxes are not so steep as to either prevent already-pregnant women from having abortions or to impose undue hardship on the living children of a pregnant woman.

    I don't support such a policy, as I don't think it's necessary and I am concerned that it might actually be harmful. If birth rate is a concern, it's better policy to encourage stable families to conceive deliberately than to discourage abortion.

    On the other hand, if sliding scale abortion fees for coked-up celebutantes could provide the funding to ensure that noone was ever denied an abortion on financial grounds, I'd support it in a heartbeat. Worst case scenario, one spoiled rich kid gives her parents a second chance to raise a productive member of society, for every hundred women who wouldn't have a chance not being forced to take one. That's a good trade.

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