View Poll Results: Do you feel the government should be allowed to do this?

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, explain

    2 7.14%
  • No, explain

    22 78.57%
  • I'm unsure

    4 14.29%
  • Regressive party vote

    0 0%
Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 112

Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #51
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Odd.
    I thought the right to choose also meant you had the right to choose poorly, understanding that with every choice you made, you were responsible for the outcome.
    People aren't being responsible if their plan is to stick the taxpayers with the bill if their medical expenses are too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Remember that the government doesnt HAVE to pay for those that have no insureance, and so there is no basis for the argument that those that choose poorly place a burden on society.
    Only in your fantasy where doctors literally rummage through a dying patient's pockets for an insurance card before treating them (and can throw them out on the street if they don't find one, even if the patient DOES have insurance). But for anyone interested in a workable health care system, rather than a dogmatic utopia, the idea of not providing ER treatment for the uninsured is hopelessly impractical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Under the law, you only need auto insurance when operating the vehicle on public roads.
    That's interesting. What state is that?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-09-09 at 04:57 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #52
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Besides, fines are punishment, and according to the 5th and 14th Amendments, punishments still require due process.
    And, I believe there is still a prohibition agianst bills of attainder.

  3. #53
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And, I believe there is still a prohibition agianst bills of attainder.
    Making something illegal is not a bill of attainder.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  4. #54
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    People aren't being responsible if their plan is to stick the taxpayers with the bill if their medical expenses are too high.
    I addressed this in my very next paragraph:

    Remember that the government doesnt HAVE to pay for those that have no insureance, and so there is no basis for the argument that those that choose poorly place a burden on society.

    Only in your fantasy...
    Labelling it as such doesnt negate the truth of my statement.

    Interesting. What state is that?
    All of them, as far as I know, and if not, then certainly Ohio.
    You dont need insurance (or plates or even a driver's license) if you dont operate your car, on public roads.

  5. #55
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    02-16-11 @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    36,915
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You ignored the actual content of my post that explains WHY it makes sense, and just repeated your talking point.
    That's because none of it made the first bit of sense.

  6. #56
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Making something illegal is not a bill of attainder.
    Does the proposal actually make it illegal, or just levy fines?

    If it does make it illegal, does it create a federal misdemeanor? Felony?

    If you do not have health insurance, are you arrested by the FBI, taken to court, arraigned and then tried?

    If not, then it is a bill of attainder in that it declares a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and then punishes them without benefit of a trial.

  7. #57
    Advisor Sanitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The world.
    Last Seen
    03-05-12 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    459

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Abortions are inherently disastrous to most women in one way or another. Why tax it?
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

  8. #58
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Does the proposal actually make it illegal, or just levy fines?

    If it does make it illegal, does it create a federal misdemeanor? Felony?

    If you do not have health insurance, are you arrested by the FBI, taken to court, arraigned and then tried?

    If not, then it is a bill of attainder in that it declares a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and then punishes them without benefit of a trial.
    It wouldn't be illegal in the criminal sense, it would be illegal in the civil sense. My understanding is that a person would be required to buy health insurance, unless they had some religious objection to either insurance or health care. If they did not comply, they would be fined. With full access to civil courts at every step. But I haven't read the bill, so I'm not sure.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  9. #59
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It wouldn't be illegal in the criminal sense, it would be illegal in the civil sense.
    So, it is a civil penalty?

    A civil penalty is when a government agency fines an individual as restitution for wrongdoing by the individual. The civil fine is not a criminal punishment, because it is primarily sought in order to compensate the state for harm done to it, rather than to punish the wrongful conduct.

    For this to then apply, not having health insurance must be 'wrongful conduct' and be harmful to the state in terms of a cost to the state.

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the state.


    This then leaves criminal penalties, which require a tiral.

    If you do not have health insurance, are you arrested by the FBI, taken to court, arraigned, tried and -then- fined? If not, then my bill of attainder statement stands.

    One must wonder what the costs of all those arrests, araignments and trials would be -- and how, exactly, the government would know that you committed the crime in the first place.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 09-09-09 at 05:29 PM.

  10. #60
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    So, it is a civil penalty?

    A civil penalty is when a government agency fines an individual as restitution for wrongdoing by the individual. The civil fine is not a criminal punishment, because it is primarily sought in order to compensate the state for harm done to it, rather than to punish the wrongful conduct.

    For this to then apply, not having health insurance must be 'wrongful conduct' and be harmful to the state in terms of a cost to the state.
    Fining people without health insurance is compensating the state for the costs associated with emergency room deadbeats.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •