View Poll Results: Do you feel the government should be allowed to do this?

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Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #101
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Drunk driving is a CRMINAL act, and your punishment is based on your actions -- thst is, what you ACTUALLY did, not what yu MIGHT have done.

    Here, we're discussing CIVIL penalties, which are based on what your action ACTUALLY (not POTENTIALLY) cost the government. As such, your response here does not address the issue put to you.

    I therefore ask again:
    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?
    Just to clarify: Is your problem with this just a technical legal matter, or do you actually have some practical/economic objection? Because honestly I couldn't care less if it's considered a crime or a tort or whatever, as long as there's an disincentive to be uninsured.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You know, we've spun this merry-go-round so many times it's sickening.
    Yes, it really is. So perhaps you should answer the ****ing question, explain which alternative to a health care mandate YOU think would work better, and then be prepared to defend that position...instead of offering up alternatives, and then wimpily declaring "But I never said that was MY view" every time I show you why they won't work.

    Until then, I am done with you. Good day.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    First of all, these questions were directed at Harshaw, not you
    You should have PMd him, then.

    I already know your absurd utopian answers...
    You refer to them as 'absurd' only because you know you have no legitimate counter -- as evidenced by your following responses the fact that you do not respond to the questions I ask.

    but I'm interested in seeing if any OTHER opponents of health insurance mandates are willing to go on the record defending them. As I suspected, Harshaw is not.
    Want to put money on that?
    I thought not.

    The person is dying in front of them and seconds count. It compromises the quality of ER service for EVERYONE if this is the first thing hospitals do.
    Irrelevant to the question you posed and the context in which it was asked.

    You ignored the question. How exactly do they "release" someone in critical condition who can't walk?
    You're being obtuse. The exact mechanics of release its irrlevant -- the point is they stop treating him.
    Now, answer my question:
    Why should the hospitals run the risk of not getting paid for the goods/services they provide?

    They shouldn't HAVE to assume anything, because they should be required to treat people in the ER.
    You didnt answer my questions:
    Why would they not? Should they assume that he does have insurance?

    So if someone in your family is taken to the ER and doesn't have their insurance card on them, you're cool with it if the hospital refuses to treat them and they die? You won't sue the hospital?
    The patient dies. How was that not clear?
    Should they assume that he does have insurance?

    And this is exactly why this solution is completely ridiculous.
    Hardly. We ALL act on the information we have at the time.
    "If I would have known that, I would have..." is meaningless.

    Not only does it compromise the QUALITY of care by delaying treatment, it will prevent some people (including insured people) from getting care at all.
    Yep. So?
    Why do you expect those that provide goods and services do so withouth any guarantee they will be compensated?

    Once again, you ignored the question.
    I answered the question -- the last word is "yes".

    Should hospitals be allowed to reject ER patients for any reason they want, or only because of a perceived inability to pay?
    There are clearly legitimate reasons to refuse service to patients -- but the discussion hereis the ability to pay, and so that the only relevant answer is the one I already gave.

    There. You now have an alternative to your argument, as you requested.
    You no longer have an excuse to not defend your argument.

  4. #104
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I have asked you in another thread: Are you opposed to pigouvian taxation?
    You didnt address my post. Please do, directly.

  5. #105
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Just to clarify: Is your problem with this just a technical legal matter
    A "technical legal matter"?



    The fact that you cannot levy a civil fine unless the individual you are fining has created a cost for the government to recoup with said fine isnt a 'technical issue", it directly addresses the nature of the fine itself.

    Much as you obviously do not realize, you cannot fine people for just any reason -- there has to be a criminal act to punish or a civil cost to recompse. If you cannot show how the individual in question is related to either, then you cannot levy a fine on that individual.

    Because honestly I couldn't care less if it's considered a crime or a tort or whatever, as long as there's an disincentive to be uninsured.
    THAT doesnt suprise me -- with you people, the the ends always justify the means.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 09-10-09 at 05:08 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, it really is. So perhaps you should answer the ****ing question, explain which alternative to a health care mandate YOU think would work better, and then be prepared to defend that position
    Stop pretending that this hasn't been done, and defend YOUR position.

  7. #107
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, it really is. So perhaps you should answer the ****ing question, explain which alternative to a health care mandate YOU think would work better, and then be prepared to defend that position...instead of offering up alternatives, and then wimpily declaring "But I never said that was MY view" every time I show you why they won't work.

    Until then, I am done with you. Good day.
    My God. The dishonesty spewage from you just gets ranker.

    Your entire "argument" rests on the premise that I agree there's a problem needing addressing. I've already said that I don't think there is. We got on this whole thing because I said the problem you think needs to be solved is one created by your own favored policies.

    So, THAT'S what I think.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #108
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    There is evidence that states policy applications have been successful in reducing teen abortion.
    Maybe they ought to spend more time trying to reduce teen pregnancy in the first place?
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  9. #109
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Maybe they ought to spend more time trying to reduce teen pregnancy in the first place?
    Very true, although i believe they do overlap.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    I was thinking of federal authority when I posted my vote. I separate state and federal authority in my mind.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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