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Thread: Fines for abortion?

  1. #91
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    1. When someone is brought into the ER unconscious, should doctors be expected to treat them immediately?
    No. If they choose to do so before determining if someone can pay, they then accept the risk they might not get paid for the goods/services they provide. Why should the hospitals run the risk of not getting paid for the goods/services they provide?

    2. Let's say that someone in the ER is stabilized but unable to walk due to their illness/injury. It is then determined that the patient does not have insurance. What should hospitals do with them?
    Determine if he can pay.
    If not, then they either release th epatient or accept the possibility that they migh tnot get paid for the goods/services they provide.
    Why should the hospitals run the risk of not getting paid for the goods/services they provide?

    3. If doctors cannot find an insurance card on the patient, should they be allowed to assume the patient does not have insurance?
    Absent any information to the contrary, that's exactly what they should assume. Why would they not? Should they assume that he does have insurance?

    If so, what happens when they do nothing and allow a patient to die
    The patient dies.

    and it turns out the patient did have insurance? Are they liable for malpractice?
    No, as they acted on the information they had at the time.

    4. Should hospitals ONLY be allowed to pick and choose ER patients based on their ability to pay (or perceived ability to pay)?
    If they do not want to run the risk of not getting paid, yes.


    There. You now have an alternative to your argument, as you requested.
    You no longer have an excuse to not defend your argument.

  2. #92
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No. I didn't.

    What I asserted is that it puts responsibility where it belongs.
    If you are not going to state your views on the issue and explain how they are BETTER than what I am proposing, I am done talking to you.

    Of course, you won't do this. You know goddamn well that there aren't any alternatives to mandated health insurance that actually make sense. So you'll just point out ridiculous alternatives, and then refuse to defend any of them under questioning. That is NOT how a rational debate works. If you're interested in actually discussing the policy rather than being contrary for the sake of being contrary, let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Read what I said. I already dealt with these issues and the liability.
    Actually, you didn't. You offered the stiff-the-hospitals solution, then refused to defend it. Just like now you're offering the hospitals-can-pick-and-choose solution, and are now refusing to defend it.

    If you have an opinion or policy suggestion that can actually stand up to scrutiny, by all means I'm listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    But you did NOT answer MY question. That, however, is a recurring theme with you.

    For your convenience, here it is again. You say you don't hold taxpayers responsible; I say that's a pool of pure, unadulterated, yellow, steaming, liquified bull****.
    I am in favor of requiring people to buy their own insurance, so that the taxpayers (or hospitals or whoever) DON'T get stuck with the bill when they end up in the ER. What is so difficult to understand about this?
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  3. #93
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I said and as you conveniently left out:

    Neither of these positions are supportable, ESPECIALLY if the person in question has not had any health care costs paid not by the state.

    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?
    Still looking for a response to this.

  4. #94
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Still looking for a response to this.
    To limit the risk. This is the major premise behind mandating auto insurance, and yet you dodge the context at any and all costs....
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  5. #95
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    First of all, these questions were directed at Harshaw, not you. I already know your absurd utopian answers, but I'm interested in seeing if any OTHER opponents of health insurance mandates are willing to go on the record defending them. As I suspected, Harshaw is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No. If they choose to do so before determining if someone can pay, they then accept the risk they might not get paid for the goods/services they provide. Why should the hospitals run the risk of not getting paid for the goods/services they provide?
    The person is dying in front of them and seconds count. It compromises the quality of ER service for EVERYONE if this is the first thing hospitals do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Determine if he can pay.
    If not, then they either release th epatient or accept the possibility that they migh tnot get paid for the goods/services they provide.
    Why should the hospitals run the risk of not getting paid for the goods/services they provide?
    You ignored the question. How exactly do they "release" someone in critical condition who can't walk?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Absent any information to the contrary, that's exactly what they should assume. Why would they not? Should they assume that he does have insurance?
    They shouldn't HAVE to assume anything, because they should be required to treat people in the ER.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    The patient dies.
    So if someone in your family is taken to the ER and doesn't have their insurance card on them, you're cool with it if the hospital refuses to treat them and they die? You won't sue the hospital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    No, as they acted on the information they had at the time.
    And this is exactly why this solution is completely ridiculous. Not only does it compromise the QUALITY of care by delaying treatment, it will prevent some people (including insured people) from getting care at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    If they do not want to run the risk of not getting paid, yes.
    Once again, you ignored the question. Should hospitals be allowed to reject ER patients for any reason they want, or only because of a perceived inability to pay?
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  6. #96
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Still looking for a response to this.
    I already responded to this in Post 89.
    Are you coming to bed?
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  7. #97
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    To limit the risk. This is the major premise behind mandating auto insurance, and yet you dodge the context at any and all costs....
    You miss the point:

    Civil fines are levied to compensate the government for its costs associated with the 'wrongful' actions of the individual being fined, with said fines being commesurate with that cost.

    What costs did the governemt incurr if it has not paid for any of my medical expenses, and if it has not incurred any such costs, what justification is there for levying a fine?

  8. #98
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You miss the point:

    Civil fines are levied to compensate the government for its costs associated with the 'wrongful' actions of the individual being fined, with said fines being commesurate with that cost.

    What costs did the governemt incurr if it has not paid for any of my medical expenses, and if it has not incurred any such costs, what justification is there for levying a fine?
    I have asked you in another thread: Are you opposed to pigouvian taxation?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  9. #99
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    For the same reason your state government can punish you for drunk driving, even if you don't have an accident: Because your irresponsible behavior carries the strong potential of causing harm, even if that is not your intent.
    Drunk driving is a CRMINAL act, and your punishment is based on your actions -- thst is, what you ACTUALLY did, not what yu MIGHT have done.

    Here, we're discussing CIVIL penalties, which are based on what your action ACTUALLY (not POTENTIALLY) cost the government. As such, your response here does not address the issue put to you.

    I therefore ask again:
    How can the federal government fine me in order to recoup a cost that I have not incurred?

  10. #100
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
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    Re: Fines for abortion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I am in favor of requiring people to buy their own insurance, so that the taxpayers (or hospitals or whoever) DON'T get stuck with the bill when they end up in the ER. What is so difficult to understand about this?

    You know, we've spun this merry-go-round so many times it's sickening.

    The taxpayers are not stuck with the bill unless YOU STICK THEM WITH THE BILL. That's a choice, never an inevitability.

    So, you DO hold the taxpayers responsible. You know you do. You're lying, bald-faced, when you say you don't. Whether or not it's BETTER to stick the bill to taxpayers doesn't even enter into it. It's what you're doing.

    And that's that. I've given up on your honesty in this matter; it's clear you're not capable of it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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