View Poll Results: Should the U.S. pull it's troops out of Afganistan?

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  • Yes. There is no possible victory there for us.

    11 17.19%
  • No. Stay & finish the job

    35 54.69%
  • Yes. Leave a mobil force in the area to fight terrorists/Taliban but leave Afganistan.

    15 23.44%
  • Pull all troops out of the area. It's not our fight.

    10 15.63%
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Thread: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Well obviously you think wars can be fought without mistakes,
    I don't think ANYONE believes that to be true of the Bush Administration.

    (but quite possible for the neocons to fight wars with nothing but mistakes however!)

  2. #42
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    This is quite simple actually. The problem is that people have no idea how to define "victory" in today's wars. We are already victorious. Staying and finishing the job implies that there is still work for us to do on the ground, but when the host government is as corrupt as what Vietnam's was in 1971, there is no job left to finish. Leaving a mobile force in the area will only leave them stranded without proper support as the host government continues to remain dependant on American muscle. And only part of this is and always was our fight.
    In the case of Vietnam, we abandoned them when the North Vietnamese continued to defy their agreements and eventually re-invaded the country.

    While I never agreed with the method in which this war was fought nor the idea that Vietnam had any strategic purpose for us to send half a million troops in the first place. But once that commitment was made and agreements signed, we should have stood by our ally regardless of how corrupt the regime may have been and continually worked to improve their efforts towards Democracy.

    The applies even more so to the Middle East as there is a vast strategic interest in supporting allies there and preventing the advancement of terrorist regimes.

    It doesn’t matter how corrupt the current regimes may be or how long it takes us to be there until their fledgling Democracies begin to bloom. These are, after all, nations that never had representative Government in their entire histories and these things take time. I don’t care if we have to be there for 100 years. It is the ONLY viable strategy that will have a chance versus the failed policies of the past decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Our mission in Iraq was to destroy the dictator and offer Iraq an opportunity at democracy. We accomplished our mission and it is up to Iraqis to follow through on their end for the rest. It will be their success or failure.
    This statement is incorrect; our mission in Iraq was to enforce the agreements and UN resolutions the despotic regime of Saddam spent a decade ignoring. As part of that strategy, Saddam’s regime was to be replaced with a representative Democracy in an effort to prevent another despot from taking over an oil rich nation and create future problems.

    Again, if we have to be there 100 years from now; that should be the goal in order to promote Democracy and peace in the region. Nothing can defeat terrorism more surely than education and prosperity. Those are the long term goals and they can only be achieved through a Democratically elected representative government.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    The same is true for Afghanistan. The Tali-Ban was removed from power and Al-Queda's base shattered in quick fashion and Osama Bin Laden is no longer a physical player. But the vast corruption in the Afghani government has not allowed the Afghanis to step up. Afghanis have failed. We have not. It is time to stop fooling ourselves into thinking that we have to "fix what we break," especially considering that this region was already broke.
    Again based on my above comments, I vehemently disagree with this notion. We have to be committed to spend the next 100 years supporting Democracy if that is what it takes.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    When it comes to this Afghani/Pakistani region, our roles need to be relegated to punishment. We should pull our troops out and strike as needed via UAVs, missiles, and special forces launched from sea bases.
    Here we are in agreement but we also need on the ground intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Our role as a "nation builder" must be defined into more practical terms. We have to understand that no matter what we do, we can and always do come home. The failed will always be these people who can't fathom a world beyond tribal allegiance, religious extremism, and corruption and oppression.
    We spent 60 years in Europe after WWII and it was a stunning success in promoting peace and prosperity. Why should we suddenly believe this issue in the ME should be treated differently?

  3. #43
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I am amused that you think people are arguing for strict adherence to failing policies; no, it is actually ironic in that all your arguments suggest an adherence to the failed policy of never finishing anything we start and abandoning our allies while falling for terrorist propaganda.

    Bin Laden had it right; I was hoping that 9-11 would prove him wrong; I guess I had too much faith in the American people's ability to remember anything past the last episode of Survivor.
    Well maybe you and your BFF Obama can text each other back and forth on how stupid America is. I am amused that people argue for forever war thinking somehow to make a situation better through engaging in the actions which made it bad in the first place...horrible intervention. I am amused that people can look at an incompetently run war with no real forethought to victory and shoring up the region and call it "mistakes". I am not amused that some continually call for the deaths of Americans in wars which had little to do with us, or which were terribly run, handled, and planned. But hey, that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Well obviously you think wars can be fought without mistakes, without cost, without sacrifice and in the time it takes to order a burger at Burger King.

    Do me a favor, when you find one historic example of a war being fought without mistakes, without cost and without sacrifice in less than a year, get back to me okay?
    Well obviously thinking isn't your strong suit. Because instead of idiotic knee jerk reactions like "obviously blah blah blah", you could have thought of other conditions. But I guess it's like blood from a stone that one. I don't think things can be fought without mistake. But things can be fought overall in an intelligent manner with forethought and proper use of the military. Maybe not everything in other wars went according to plan, but there were plans and some had reasonable conditions.

    But your sentences are nothing more than deflect jargon full of mind rotting tripe and propaganda best left ignored.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #44
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I don't think ANYONE believes that to be true of the Bush Administration.

    (but quite possible for the neocons to fight wars with nothing but mistakes however!)
    Your trite simplistic hyper partisan remarks are hardly anything to take seriously.

    Carry on; you continue making yourself completely irrelevant on this forum.

  5. #45
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well maybe you and your BFF Obama can text each other back and forth on how stupid America is. I am amused that people argue for forever war thinking somehow to make a situation better through engaging in the actions which made it bad in the first place...horrible intervention. I am amused that people can look at an incompetently run war with no real forethought to victory and shoring up the region and call it "mistakes". I am not amused that some continually call for the deaths of Americans in wars which had little to do with us, or which were terribly run, handled, and planned. But hey, that's just me.
    I will take your empty hyperbolic blather as a concession and admission that you cannot counter my arguments with anything substantive or that can be supported by the facts and historic record.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well obviously thinking isn't your strong suit. Because instead of idiotic knee jerk reactions like "obviously blah blah blah", you could have thought of other conditions. But I guess it's like blood from a stone that one. I don't think things can be fought without mistake. But things can be fought overall in an intelligent manner with forethought and proper use of the military. Maybe not everything in other wars went according to plan, but there were plans and some had reasonable conditions.
    I will take your empty hyperbolic blather as a concession and admission that you cannot counter my arguments with anything substantive or that can be supported by the facts and historic record.

    As stated earlier, when you can provide me ONE instance of a war that was fought without mistakes, without sacrifice and without great cost get back to me and perhaps we can have an intelligent debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But your sentences are nothing more than deflect jargon full of mind rotting tripe and propaganda best left ignored.
    How ironic based on the mindless hyperbolic nonsense contained in your comments above to suggest that I am the one who is engaging in mind rotting tripe and propaganda best left ignored.

    By all means, carry on; substantive and informed debate is apparently not your forte’.

  6. #46
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I will take your empty hyperbolic blather as a concession and admission that you cannot counter my arguments with anything substantive or that can be supported by the facts and historic record. .
    You have an argument?

  7. #47
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Your trite simplistic hyper partisan remarks are hardly anything to take seriously.

    Carry on; you continue making yourself completely irrelevant on this forum.
    Oh come on TD.......Give us a hug!

  8. #48
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I will take your empty hyperbolic blather as a concession and admission that you cannot counter my arguments with anything substantive or that can be supported by the facts and historic record.
    It's the same BS we've heard and that has been dismissed long ago. Blah blah blah, terrorists, blah blah blah, they're out to get you, blah blah blah 9/11. The fact is we've been at war for nearly 8 years, it's unacceptable. We're the United States of America, it shouldn't take us 8 years to fight some back water country. It's all the occupation and imperialism which is drawing this crap out. And the whole needing another terrorist attack to remind us...sick. Even insinuating it is sick. Iraq wasn't about terrorism, Afghanistan was related to it; but we ****ed it up. Too bad, too sad. Guess we should have had someone with more than 3 functioning brain cells on that one. Now it's just fallen into horrible quagmire and is still being run ineffectively. If it's withdraw or ineffective war, I say withdraw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I will take your empty hyperbolic blather as a concession and admission that you cannot counter my arguments with anything substantive or that can be supported by the facts and historic record.

    As stated earlier, when you can provide me ONE instance of a war that was fought without mistakes, without sacrifice and without great cost get back to me and perhaps we can have an intelligent debate.
    This is still mindless blather and pointless deflect. I already said, it's not about making a mistake it's the overall picture. Wars are dynamic entities and you have to go with that. But overall, there can be intelligent ways by which to fight war and drive to solution. That hasn't been the case in either Iraq or Afghanistan. They were not run intelligently. It's not to say there is never sacrafice or mistakes, but rather that there is an overall to how it's going to be run. What are the goals, how can you get there, what do we do when we get there, how fast can we get there, etc. Questions which need to be asked and answered when entering into a war. If you just run in haphazardly without sufficient plan of end game, you get what we currently have. An overall ridiculously poor run war which costs nothing but tons of money and American lives. But if you're the big government, big deficit, big spending, big war type; you'd probably just make excuses for the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    How ironic based on the mindless hyperbolic nonsense contained in your comments above to suggest that I am the one who is engaging in mind rotting tripe and propaganda best left ignored.

    By all means, carry on; substantive and informed debate is apparently not your forte’.
    There's no irony, it's just that a spade is a spade. Sorry if calling your posts what they really are offends you. It's not that substantive and informed debate is not my forte. It's just that it has been my experience on this site that with your posts, substantive and informed debate is impossible as I have rarely seen you argue anything along those lines.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  9. #49
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    You have an argument?
    Trolling and baiting again? How typical of you.

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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Not sure if anyone has read:

    THIS from Will

    or

    THIS from Krulak to Will

    Just some insight from pretty credible sources...

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