View Poll Results: Should the U.S. pull it's troops out of Afganistan?

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  • Yes. There is no possible victory there for us.

    11 17.19%
  • No. Stay & finish the job

    35 54.69%
  • Yes. Leave a mobil force in the area to fight terrorists/Taliban but leave Afganistan.

    15 23.44%
  • Pull all troops out of the area. It's not our fight.

    10 15.63%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

  1. #121
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I supported the war in Afghanistan until it unnecessarily bled into Iraq, then I saw the campaign for what it was. I saw genuine strategic and structural good in invading Afghanistan, but like with most Western campaigns, too many people saw dollar signs and power play opportunities with old foes, and the good was lost. Now we are just trying to maintain a status quo as Western nations withdraw one by one. Canada will be doing so in 2011.

    I agree with GySgt when he says that Bin Laden is dead, and he probably has been for a while. The fact that it isn't being announced goes to show that the whole premise for the war was bogus. I'm not saying 9-11 was a conspiracy. It was a real event that provided a well timed pretext. That's all.
    I think our continued presence in Afghanistan makes us less safe here at home, costs to much money (that we don't have), is wasting American lives, is losing support everywhere & it's time to leave. Keep small mobile forces within striking range in safe, friendly places where we are wanted or at sea from aircraft carriers.
    Terrorists are like criminals....They will always be around. so let's fight them intelligently.

    You don't need to drop an A-bomb to kill a fly.
    Last edited by Devil505; 09-23-09 at 12:59 PM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I think our continued presence in Afghanistan make us less safe here at home, costs to much money (that we don't have), is wasting American lives, is losing support everywhere & it's time to leave. Keep small mobile forces within striking range in safe, friendly places where we are wanted or at sea from aircraft carriers.
    Terrorists are like criminals....They will always be around. so let's fight them intelligently.

    You don't need to drop an A-bomb to kill a fly.
    It depends on what you mean by safe. If it's safe militarily, I don't think that's a problem. 9-11 was a blip, mostly because the White House ignored all warning signs that an attack was imminent. Economically? Well... the trans Middle Eastern pipeline under construction will ensure a stable oil flow for at least the next 50-100 years to the Mediterranean, with private U.S. contractors at the forefront of that development. So it does bring some resource security.

    There are results being seen in Afghanistan that could make it sustainable in the short term, but I really think the geopolitics of the whole region will render victories temporary.

  3. #123
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It depends on what you mean by safe. If it's safe militarily, I don't think that's a problem. 9-11 was a blip, mostly because the White House ignored all warning signs that an attack was imminent. Economically? Well... the trans Middle Eastern pipeline under construction will ensure a stable oil flow for at least the next 50-100 years to the Mediterranean, with private U.S. contractors at the forefront of that development. So it does bring some resource security.

    There are results being seen in Afghanistan that could make it sustainable in the short term, but I really think the geopolitics of the whole region will render victories temporary.
    I mean station a small force where they are safe militarily. Not in "Indian Country"
    It seems to me that our most effective anti-terrorist actions have come from predator UAV's armed with Hellfires. That can be done without leaving a base in the U.S. southeast.
    Totally agree that 9/11 was so horribly successful (for the terrorists) due to mishandling by the Bush admin...bordering on dereliction of duty, imo.
    Last edited by Devil505; 09-23-09 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    I'm not so sure I would go quite as far as saying 9/11 was so successful because of failures on the Bush admin. But all the freaking out about it is a bit much. 3,000 people is quite a bit, but more than that die each year from cars and I'm not supposed to freak out about that. There are smart ways to address terrorism. We should note that there will always be terrorists and occasionally there will be an attack. That's it. It's still less probability than me being hit by a car. Starting forever wars in countries we've already ****ed over for the past few decades may not be the wisest of plans.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Holy logic leap batman! Nothing you quoted suggests any of that. That's your supposition and preconceived notions.

    But I find it stunning that people keep bringing up the deaths from terrorist attack and soldiers being lost in Iraq as excuse to engage in activities which will cause more death. If you were really interested in preventing those deaths, you'd seek alternatives which doesn't lead to more Americans dying.
    Once again you attempt to pretend that security and freedom can be obtained without cost. Even though I doubt many will get past the second paragraph, I will tell you what is now happening and why I am hardly surprised that now we debate whether the right war is worth the cost now.

    Please show me ONE instance in history where this occurred. Thank you; now we can move on and attempt to comprehend what I am saying instead of running off at the mouth without addressing the FACTS that support my issue with the notion of abandoning more allies for the sake of minimizing our losses and expenses rather than maintaining the commitments we entered into when we all made the decisions to go in.

    I use the events of 9-11 and the deaths of our soldiers as a constant reminder of why we are there and the cost we have paid to succeed. I do this because people like you appear to need this constant reminder.

    History is our constant reminder of what happens when we abandon our allies and nations that we have CHOSEN to invade in an effort to enforce our rights and the UN's resolutions.

    There has been a coherent and factual argument for staying because it will promote a CHANGE in the previous past failed policies regarding the ME which will promote democratically elected Governments and allow prosperity to bloom for their people; this is the BEST strategy, and only one in my opinion, to defeat terrorism which the ME appears to be the breeding ground for.

    You cannot negotiate with these people, you cannot talk to these people and you certainly cannot make agreements with these people so it leaves little else for us to do in order to contain this problem where it is bred instead of attempting to do the impossible and intercept every potential threat on our own homeland.

    In addition, this strategy is an effective offensive effort where professional soldiers who VOLUNTEER to do this will fight these thugs instead of attempting to fight them on our home ground.

    The notion that abandoning our allies and the nations we CHOSE to invade now without finishing the job and ensuring their security will do NOTHING but encourage the enemy who's strategy all along suggested that Western nations were too spineless to make the commitment necessary and that if they just killed enough of us we would walk away; using Vietnam as their template.

    Now people like you with selective memories and no historic reference to support your naive notions think it makes perfect sense to abandon the effort handing Osama the victory he claimed would occur knowing that most Westerners think like you.

    I find it stunning that today we are now entering into a similar debate we had on Iraq, by the very people who ranted about the legitimacy of Afghanistan while denigrating the Iraq effort now using the same tactics, to suggest that we cannot now succeed in the war that they claimed was justified.

    Are you seeing a theme here?

    Many, like myself, knew that this would happen during the debate about Iraq and that Afghanistan was going to be the next target of disinformation by those who never believed ANY war is worth fighting and will happily place their fellow citizens at greater risk in the future to support their weak, passivist and naively dangerous notions about how to effectively deal with terrorists, despots and dictators who are a grave threat to the freedoms people all over the world hold dear.

    Contrary to the Liberals and "moderates" who claimed they supported the Afghanistan affair and stood by their ally the USA in this endeavor, we now see it was empty rhetoric and now see the truth come out that they never had the will to see this through, never believed in the effort and just wanted a fast food war where we go in and kill some terrorists then retreat back to our borders kissing the asses of the despots and dictators who control the worlds most strategic resource and wait for the next terrorist attack while doing NOTHING to end this reign of terror that exists thanks to the lack of freely elected democracies in the region.

    Bravo!

  6. #126
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I supported the war in Afghanistan until it unnecessarily bled into Iraq, then I saw the campaign for what it was. I saw genuine strategic and structural good in invading Afghanistan, but like with most Western campaigns, too many people saw dollar signs and power play opportunities with old foes, and the good was lost. Now we are just trying to maintain a status quo as Western nations withdraw one by one. Canada will be doing so in 2011.

    I agree with GySgt when he says that Bin Laden is dead, and he probably has been for a while. The fact that it isn't being announced goes to show that the whole premise for the war was bogus. I'm not saying 9-11 was a conspiracy. It was a real event that provided a well timed pretext. That's all.
    And here it is people; the predictable beginning of what I knew would be the next effort after we withdrew from Iraq by those who have the simple notion that defending our freedoms, citizens and supporting our efforts to defeat our enemies comes at little or no cost.
    This is merely the beginning of a predictable campaign by Liberal and Moderate passivists to make the argument to now abandon what they originally claimed were the "just" war. Now we see their true colors, they never actually support any use of troops to fight our enemies but rather, wish to give Osama Bin Laden the victory he claimed would be theirs by their commitment to the LONG term, something he knew the Western Nations and UN are incapable of and where he would win using public opinion.

    The template for Osama was Vietnam; once again his predictions are correct and our inability to make the sacrifice necessary to support our beliefs, way of life and defend our citizens from it's enemies once more become evident to those bent on destroying us.

    Again, this prevalent attitude among the worlds Democracies only serves as encouragement and a testimony of our inability to defend that which we rhetorically claim we believe in, but haven't the will to carry out.

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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Keep small mobile forces within striking range in safe, friendly places where we are wanted or at sea from aircraft carriers.
    You and others who suggest this naive strategy might want to look at a map of the region.

    The notion that we can keep small mobile forces anywhere without nations that support our efforts requires the willful suspension of disbelief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Terrorists are like criminals....They will always be around. so let's fight them intelligently.
    This is the fallacy of the passivist mentality that is prevalent in Western nations today and the reason successful attacks like 9-11 can and will occur in the future.

    Terrorists are not anything like criminals and the notion they are is a stunning statement in a vacuum of reality and the facts.

    How ironic that you claim you want to fight them intelligently while completely failing to comprehend the nature of terrorists and claim they are like criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    You don't need to drop an A-bomb to kill a fly.
    This is a farcical analogy that cannot be supported by reality or the facts. But again, I am hardly surprised when it is coming from someone who is so obviously unaware of a global map of the region, thinks that we can maintain and sustain small mobile forces in nations that turn hostile and naively thinks that terrorists are like criminals.

    The frightening part for me is not that people like you profess such naive notions, that is to be expected, but that we have a President that has the same naive farcical notions.

  8. #128
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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again you attempt to pretend that security and freedom can be obtained without cost. Even though I doubt many will get past the second paragraph, I will tell you what is now happening and why I am hardly surprised that now we debate whether the right war is worth the cost now.
    Stupid. "Not worth the cost". All this is dodge away from the fact that we done ****ed up. That people like you are pushing Americans to their deaths and trying to get the rest of us to **** our pants so we support you. Whatever. Forever war is not good, will never be good, will not take us to good places. That's all there is too it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    9-11 was a blip, mostly because the White House ignored all warning signs that an attack was imminent.
    No other statement illustrates the naive mental state of those who argue for withdrawal and naively think that 9-11 could have been prevented if only we had smarter politicians in charge (in other words, political philosophies they happen to agree with).

    Of course, the facts to not support such foolhardy observations nor do they support the foolish strategic arguments made by the same people who have such nonsensical notions. Of course, having the collective memory of a magpie is a prerequisite to make such arguments as well.

    The scary part is that the morons currently in charge of our Government think along the same lines and this is not only dangerous, but quite possibly will lead to another large loss of fellow citizens lives in the future.

    Our enemies rightfully laugh at us and mock us for our foolish naive notions about their capabilities and desire to murder us and inability to sustain a long term commitment.

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    Re: Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    And here it is people; the predictable beginning of what I knew would be the next effort after we withdrew from Iraq by those who have the simple notion that defending our freedoms, citizens and supporting our efforts to defeat our enemies comes at little or no cost.
    What I'm saying is that the cost is non-sustainable, not that there is no cost. Are we prepared to go to war with every nation around Afghanistan in order to ensure that the Taliban stays out of it? That's my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    This is merely the beginning of a predictable campaign by Liberal and Moderate passivists to make the argument to now abandon what they originally claimed were the "just" war.
    I do agree with you to some extent that liberal campaigns have made troop deployments less effective, but please do not accuse me of being a pacifist. Even though I prefer that wars not be waged, I tend to err on the side of structural realism when it comes to human conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Now we see their true colors, they never actually support any use of troops to fight our enemies but rather, wish to give Osama Bin Laden the victory he claimed would be theirs by their commitment to the LONG term, something he knew the Western Nations and UN are incapable of and where he would win using public opinion.
    Osama Bin Laden is more than likely already dead and the Al Qaeda network has been severely damaged since the start of the campaign. Places like Kabul and Kandahar have seen freedom as they haven't seen for more than half a century. Bush's stated mission was to fight terrorism in Afghanistan, I think we've accomplished a lot of that. We brought democracy to the region, trained its own security forces, and established bases for long term oversight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The template for Osama was Vietnam; once again his predictions are correct and our inability to make the sacrifice necessary to support our beliefs, way of life and defend our citizens from it's enemies once more become evident to those bent on destroying us.
    The stated mission for Afghanistan was to fight terrorism. Please tell me how we are going to eliminate all terrorism from the Middle East?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Again, this prevalent attitude among the worlds Democracies only serves as encouragement and a testimony of our inability to defend that which we rhetorically claim we believe in, but haven't the will to carry out.
    Afghanistan may be a democracy on paper, but it is already voting in civil rights violations (according to our standard) left, right, and centre. The more recent bills passed supporting the domestic rape and imprisonment of women by their husbands is appalling.

    What we are now defending is not a nation that wishes to be of our own making. We aren't defending its democracy, but rather our long term strategic and economic investment. Don't fool yourself into believing we are there for any other reason than our own interest.

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