View Poll Results: Results of Raising the Minimum Wage

Voters
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  • Greater buying power

    14 25.00%
  • Greater unemployment

    32 57.14%
  • Less unemployment

    7 12.50%
  • Higher prices

    36 64.29%
  • Less competitive on world markets

    25 44.64%
  • Benefits low income workers

    20 35.71%
  • Places people in higher income tax brackets

    7 12.50%
  • More jobs go overseas

    32 57.14%
  • More businesses close

    30 53.57%
  • Benefits middle income workers

    5 8.93%
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Thread: Effects of Minimum Wage

  1. #81
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That is not a well-informed claim
    Just because it contradicts a bunch of studies doesn't mean it's not well-informed. You can basically find a study to "prove" anything you want. You really need to stop talking like you have been blessed with ultimate knowledge, it gets annoying.

    He certainly doesn't sound like the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. Is he a first-year student? That would explain why he's so ignorant of labor economics.
    He's about to get his Master's. Believe it or not, there are very smart, very informed people who do not see things the way you do. In fact, given the obscurity of most of your beliefs, most well-informed people disagree with your views. So stop acting like your view is the "informed" one and everyone else's is the "uninformed" one.



    As libertarianism and capitalism are incompatible,
    What an immensely stupid claim.

  2. #82
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Where exactly will you go when you leave and start this country of your own? The moon? The middle of the ocean?
    Libertarians buying up adjacent land in New Hampshire and suing for secession is one possibility. Seasteading now and spacesteading in the future are realistic possibilities also. Don't much care for the moon though - there's far more treasure in the asteroid belt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Not hardly would I try and stop you. [...]
    Can I get that in writing, from you and all other government thugs?

  3. #83
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Angel, hold on a sec; I'm finding some information on efficiency wages for you to look at but want to get this little gem out of the quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Just because it contradicts a bunch of studies doesn't mean it's not well-informed. You can basically find a study to "prove" anything you want. You really need to stop talking like you have been blessed with ultimate knowledge, it gets annoying.
    Unless you can identify specific methodological deficiencies in the studies mentioned or post contrary and superior empirical research, your flailing here isn't very impressive. I'm not interested in your attacks on the empirical method; I'm interested in you actually supporting your claims, but you don't seem to be able to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    He's about to get his Master's. Believe it or not, there are very smart, very informed people who do not see things the way you do. In fact, given the obscurity of most of your beliefs, most well-informed people disagree with your views. So stop acting like your view is the "informed" one and everyone else's is the "uninformed" one.
    That's a sad testament to the declining quality of our educational system. Someone apparently ignorant of even basic labor economics is about to get an Econ. Master's? He should at least try and read Alan Manning's Monopsony in Motion if he can understand it, or at least try and struggle his way through the Wikipedia article on monopsony. I hope he knows what the term means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    What an immensely stupid claim.
    Speaking of Wikipedia, you could use a little refresher course yourself; maybe you and your professor bro could have a little study session. Here's what to write on the back of your flash card:

    The French anarchist communist Joseph Déjacque was the first to employ the term libertarian in a political sense in May 1857, in an 11-page pamphlet De l'Etre Humain mâle et femelle (Concerning the Human Male and Female), an open letter criticizing Pierre-Joseph Proudhon published while its author was in exile in New Orleans.[15] From 1858 until his return to France in 1861 Déjacque published in New York a journal called Le Libertaire: Journal du Mouvement Social.[28][29]

    According to the anarchist historian Max Nettlau, the first use of the term libertarian communism was in November 1880, when a French anarchist congress employed it to more clearly identify its doctrines.[30] The French anarchist journalist Sébastien Faure, later founder and editor of the four-volume Anarchist Encyclopedia, started the weekly paper Le Libertaire (The Libertarian) in 1895.[31]

    Reflecting international use of the term "libertarian" by anarchists, Peter Kropotkin's 1909 The Great French Revolution noted that "the principles of anarchism" had "their origin" in the directly democratic sections of Paris."[32]. According to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article on anarchism, written by Peter Kropotkin[33], the economic and especially the mutual-banking ideas of Proudhon were applied by supporters the United States. The article states: "It would be impossible to represent here, in a short sketch, the penetration, on the one hand, of anarchist ideas into modern literature, and the influence, on the other hand, which the libertarian ideas of the best contemporary writers have exercised upon the development of anarchism." Writers he named included John Stuart Mill, Herbert Spencer, Jean-Marie Guyau, Alfred Jules Émile Fouillée, Multatuli, Richard Wagner, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ralph Waldo Emerson, William Lloyd Garrison, Henry David Thoreau and others.[34]

    Numerous left libertarians or libertarian socialists around the world have so described themselves over the last 100 years.[35][36][37] Libertarian socialists, including Noam Chomsky and Colin Ward state that the term libertarianism is considered throughout the world as a synonym for anarchism but in the United States it means free market philosophies.[38][39][40]

  4. #84
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's a sad testament to the declining quality of our educational system. Someone apparently ignorant of even basic labor economics is about to get an Econ. Master's? He should at least try and read Alan Manning's Monopsony in Motion if he can understand it, or at least try and struggle his way through the Wikipedia article on monopsony. I hope he knows what the term means.
    Once again, you show unprecedented closed-mindedness and narcissism. I realize that debating you is a waste of time, and yet I will often find myself compelled to do so anyways. This is not one of those times.

    My brother not only understands monopsony, he's the one I went to to explain the Wikipedia article on it back when I had no idea what your argument was.

  5. #85
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    What an immensely stupid claim.
    It is a vague claim since capitalism is very hard to pin down. He should have said corporate-capitalism and libertarianism are incompatible.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #86
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerAngel View Post
    Regarding whether raising min wages causes higher unemployment,is it not a matter of common sense and practicality? If you own a business and have, say $3200 available each week for salaries, you can employ 10 people at $8 an hour. However, if the min wage were raised to $10 an hour next week, you would only be able to employ 8 people instead of 10 with your budget.

    This analysis may be called oversimplistic, but can anyone deny that this is precisely what occurs when the min wage is raised?
    Assuming that the amount of demand for labor exceeds the supply. In the past five years we experienced conditions where the supply for cheap labor was surpassed by the demand. Fast food offering $10 an hour. Raising minimum won't change conditions then.

    Your analogy is simplistic because it ignores the other real costs of labor. When you have to shell out thousands for additional insurance and worker's comp, employer FICA, among other state and federal taxes, that extra $2 an hour is really quite irrelevant. If we really want to reduce the cost of labor to employers, we need to start with costs that aren't directly given to employees. That's somewhat of an argument for stripping healthcare from business as it relieves a vast burden upon hiring new workers.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 09-29-09 at 05:21 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #87
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Once again, you show unprecedented closed-mindedness and narcissism. I realize that debating you is a waste of time, and yet I will often find myself compelled to do so anyways. This is not one of those times.

    My brother not only understands monopsony, he's the one I went to to explain the Wikipedia article on it back when I had no idea what your argument was.
    He's an Austrian; the entire GMU faculty and economic program is infected with them. It consequently comes as no surprise to me that he doesn't understand the prevalence of monopsony power in the capitalist labor market, as most Austrians don't. Walter Block's article on the topic, for example, failed to even consider dynamic monopsony, which rendered much of it completely off-base.

  8. #88
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Let's just get rid of the minimum wage and allow employers to set abusively low wages for unskilled workers. YEAH! Seems to be the logic behind the conservative mantras.
    It's time for a revolution in our country. Not a revolution forged with guns and bombs but a revolution forged of compassion and altruism. A revolution that extends a hand to those who don't have and who cannot. A revolution that makes Health Care available to all those in the US.

  9. #89
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by formerroadie View Post
    Let's just get rid of the minimum wage and allow employers to set abusively low wages for unskilled workers. YEAH! Seems to be the logic behind the conservative mantras.
    Works for me.

    If people don't wish to work for the wage offered, either someone else will, or the wage will have to be raised.

    Just in case you didn't notice, this is one of the things "freedom" is about.

    Making choices.

    You, of course, are opposed to freedom, so you can't possibly understand.

  10. #90
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    You're forgetting the other major effect, which is that employees make more.
    Which is good because the products they buy will cost more. Any "extra" money being made by a minimum wage increase is subsequently spent on the increased cost of daily purchases. Those who don't make minimum wage (the majority) aren't given a pay increase, so they just get to pay more for everything that the increased minimum wage forced to go up.

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