View Poll Results: Results of Raising the Minimum Wage

Voters
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  • Greater buying power

    14 25.00%
  • Greater unemployment

    32 57.14%
  • Less unemployment

    7 12.50%
  • Higher prices

    36 64.29%
  • Less competitive on world markets

    25 44.64%
  • Benefits low income workers

    20 35.71%
  • Places people in higher income tax brackets

    7 12.50%
  • More jobs go overseas

    32 57.14%
  • More businesses close

    30 53.57%
  • Benefits middle income workers

    5 8.93%
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Thread: Effects of Minimum Wage

  1. #31
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Very, very few of them. Only 2.2% of U.S. workers make minimum wage (source: Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2006), and that doesn't even mean that all of them make more because of minimum wage legislation.
    So minimum wage is powerful enough to get people fired, but is irrelevant because only 2.2% make minimum wage? This seems pretty self-contradictory.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  2. #32
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    All agreements between individuals should be voluntary, and in negotiating wages that typically leads to an objective compromise based on supply and demand.
    We voluntarily agree to live by the laws of our government. We have a social contract between all of us that we will respect the laws our elected representatives make.

    Also, how am I, a lowly unskilled worker, supposed to negotiate on equal ground with a huge company like, say, Wal-Mart? I need to make enough money to not be destitute, while they have a practically bottomless pool of people like me to draw from. It doesn't seem equal in practice.

    Minimum wage and all other violent government interventionism in the economy constitutes theft. It reduces economic competitiveness, causes intellectual stagnation, discourages innovation, and forces better workers to be punished for the benefit of the worse.
    It increases basic living conditions, and makes sure wages stay competitive with the modern price of living. And it's not theft because we agree to it through our legislature.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  3. #33
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I'm sorry, but next time can you use slightly smaller words? Monopsony was never exactly a vocab word.
    Monopsony in the traditional sense refers to one buyer and many sellers; in the context of labor economics, it refers to the existence of upward sloping labor supply curves as opposed to infinitely elastic labor supply curves (which would be horizontal). We know that labor supply curves aren't infinitely elastic because cutting wages by one cent doesn't result in worker migration to other firms. We therefore have additional complications in labor markets that distort the textbook assumption of there being a supply reduction (which consequently reduces employment) every time that production costs increase (and a floor mechanism such as the minimum wage would involve such).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I have no idea what the rest of what you posted means, but there is plenty of empirical research proving that minimum wage reduces employment, as I posted on the last page. Much of it actually comes from, and is admitted by, those who are sympathetic to minimum wage.
    Since the labor market is not heterogenous in nature, the effects that a minimum wage will have will naturally be somewhat mixed, and evidence of a reduction in unemployment caused by a specific minimum wage (I see that studies magically have the ability to distinguish between correlation and causation when they work in your favor, incidentally ) is not sufficiently illustrative of a general pattern. For example, I refer to Card and Krueger's Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania:

    On April 1, 1992 New Jersey's minimum wage increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour. To evaluate the impact of the law we surveyed 410 fast food restaurants in New Jersey and Pennsylvania before and after the rise in the minimum. Comparisons of the changes in wages, employment, and prices at stores in New Jersey relative to stores in Pennsylvania (where the minimum wage remained fixed at $4.25 per hour) yield simple estimates of the effect of the higher minimum wage. Our empirical findings challenge the prediction that a rise in the minimum reduces employment. Relative to stores in Pennsylvania, fast food restaurants in New Jersey increased employment by 13 percent. We also compare employment growth at stores in New Jersey that were initially paying high wages (and were unaffected by the new law) to employment changes at lower-wage stores. Stores that were unaffected by the minimum wage had the same employment growth as stores in Pennsylvania, while stores that had to increase their wages increased their employment.
    You should really familiarize yourself with this empirical literature instead of believing textbook and neoclassical nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    All agreements between individuals should be voluntary, and in negotiating wages that typically leads to an objective compromise based on supply and demand.

    Minimum wage and all other violent government interventionism in the economy constitutes theft. It reduces economic competitiveness, causes intellectual stagnation, discourages innovation, and forces better workers to be punished for the benefit of the worse.
    Your comment isn't based on any sound knowledge of supply and demand (and spits at economic rationality), and it ignores the more pertinent reality that the capitalist labor market is based around the factors of coercion and exchange. The real theft comes from the unjust extraction of surplus value from the working class that the financial class misappropriates, incidentally.

  4. #34
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Since the labor market is not heterogenous in nature, the effects that a minimum wage will have will naturally be somewhat mixed, and evidence of a reduction in unemployment caused by a specific minimum wage (I see that studies magically have the ability to distinguish between correlation and causation when they work in your favor, incidentally ) is not sufficiently illustrative of a general pattern. For example, I refer to Card and Krueger's Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania:



    You should really familiarize yourself with this empirical literature instead of believing textbook and neoclassical nonsense.
    So it's not true in one industry in one state at one time. Did it not occur to the researchers that perhaps New Jersey's economy was simply at a more upward trend than that of Pennsylvania, and that perhaps this was more true of businesses which had just started up (and therefore were more effected by the minimum wage increase) than others? For all I know this did occur to them, because all I can get is a summary and I'm pretty sure I have to subscribe to something to get the full version.

    In any case, I still have yet to hear an argument why making a company pay more money than the market demands could possibly be beneficial to said company, at least not using language I actually understand.

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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Agnapostate - you have proven yourself too intellectually dishonest for any substantive debate. I will not waste my time talking to a wall.

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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    So it's not true in one industry in one state at one time.
    Well, no...it's also true in a small out-of-the-way municipality known as Britain. For example, consult Dickens et al.'s (in which Manning is included), The Effects of Minimum Wages on Employment: Theory and Evidence from Britain. Consider the abstract:

    Recent work on the economic effects of minimum wages has stressed that the standard economic model, where increases in minimum wages depress employment, is not supported by empirical work in some labor markets. We present a general theoretical model whereby employers have some degree of monopsony power, which allows minimum wages to have the conventional negative impact on employment but which also allows for a neutral or positive impact. Studying the industry‐based British Wages Councils between 1975 and 1992, we find that minimum wages significantly compress the distribution of earnings but do not have a negative impact on employment.
    Unfortunately, this is the kind of empirical research that the utopian rightists aren't interested in looking into; they'd rather engage in horrible misinterpretations of Adam Smith or copy and paste something from mises.org. Libman here is a good example of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    In any case, I still have yet to hear an argument why making a company pay more money than the market demands could possibly be beneficial to said company, at least not using language I actually understand.
    So read about [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony"]monopsony[/ame].

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    Agnapostate - you have proven yourself too intellectually dishonest for any substantive debate. I will not waste my time talking to a wall.
    Considering that your idea of "debate" is repeating tiresome Henry Hazlitt lines and referring to your pseudo-anarchist ideology, I'll of course take that as not only a compliment, but one of the finest compliments I've ever received.

  7. #37
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    We voluntarily agree to live by the laws of our government.
    No, we don't - people who don't agree are dealt with through force.


    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    We have a social contract between all of us that we will respect the laws our elected representatives make.
    I didn't sign it, I don't consent to it, and I have no "representatives".

    A society needs to be governed only through epistemologically objective natural laws, like the Non-Aggression Principle, parents' rights, and so forth. All other law must come from explicit contracts enforced through [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycentric_law"]polycentric arbitration[/ame].


    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Also, how am I, a lowly unskilled worker, supposed to negotiate on equal ground with a huge company like, say, Wal-Mart?
    You own your self - your mind, your body, your time, your skills, and any other capital that you may have. WalMart (unlike government) cannot take anything from you without your explicit consent.


    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I need to make enough money to not be destitute, while they have a practically bottomless pool of people like me to draw from. It doesn't seem equal in practice.
    I need immortality and omnipotence, but we must all function within the context of economic reality. If I'm bidding on a project on a site like guru.com, any person anywhere in the world who can offer better quality or better value deserves to get the job in my place.


    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    It increases basic living conditions, and makes sure wages stay competitive with the modern price of living. And it's not theft because we agree to it through our legislature.
    You cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps, which is what a socialist economic system tries to do - get more outputs from an inefficient system than inputs. Minimum wage laws destroy value by reducing efficiency, which means a lower quality of life for everyone involved.

    Any rational business (and businesses exist in a competitive environment of natural selection which maximizes rationality) would seek a society with the least amount of government theft, thus minimum wage leads to unemployment.

    Minimum wage disassociates reward from created value, thus discouraging productivity.

  8. #38
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    WalMart (unlike government) cannot take anything from you without your explicit consent.
    Wal-Mart is associated with increased elements of coercion in the labor market due to their exacerbation of wage and employment reductions in communities where their retailers take root.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    Minimum wage laws destroy value by reducing efficiency, which means a lower quality of life for everyone involved.
    Nope! Minimum wage laws' positive effects on employment constitute a reduction of static inefficiency.

  9. #39
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    So it's not true in one industry in one state at one time. Did it not occur to the researchers that perhaps New Jersey's economy was simply at a more upward trend than that of Pennsylvania, and that perhaps this was more true of businesses which had just started up (and therefore were more effected by the minimum wage increase) than others? For all I know this did occur to them, because all I can get is a summary and I'm pretty sure I have to subscribe to something to get the full version.

    In any case, I still have yet to hear an argument why making a company pay more money than the market demands could possibly be beneficial to said company, at least not using language I actually understand.
    Because it gives its employees increased buying power, which leads to them buying more things and putting more money into the economy, which comes back to the company.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  10. #40
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    Re: Effects of Minimum Wage

    No, we don't - people who don't agree are dealt with through force.
    And you have the option to revolt if you don't like it. What if murderers got away with their crimes because they refused to accept the laws? Laws must be obligatory.

    I didn't sign it, I don't consent to it, and I have no "representatives".
    You had the option a few months ago to vote on who is your president, your Congressional Representative, possibly your senator, your governor, your state legislators, your mayor, etc. The person you would have liked to hold that office may not have won, but you had the option, along with your neighbors, to collectively choose.

    A society needs to be governed only through epistemologically objective natural laws, like the Non-Aggression Principle, parents' rights, and so forth. All other law must come from explicit contracts enforced through
    polycentric arbitration
    Polycentric_law Polycentric_law
    Why?

    You own your self - your mind, your body, your time, your skills, and any other capital that you may have. WalMart (unlike government) cannot take anything from you without your explicit consent.
    Irrelevant to my argument, which is that any agreement between me and Wal-Mart isn't going to be made on equal ground.

    I need immortality and omnipotence, but we must all function within the context of economic reality. If I'm bidding on a project on a site like guru.com, any person anywhere in the world who can offer better quality or better value deserves to get the job in my place.
    And if you aren't currently able to get a job that will allow you to survive in the current economy, what then? Would you gladly starve to death?
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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