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Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

Coronado said:
The example you gave isn't even remotely relevant.

Pull out of NATO and the various treaties we've entered into and I bet we'll have the money and manpower to build up a military sufficient for our needs.
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So lets destroy the most powerful alliance on this planet that keeps the Russian bear at bay, and start building bunkers. The best defence is offence, thus we need to not only keep our international power but actually expand it.
 
stekim said:
Well, long before we need to worry about someone invading us, that's for sure.
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Hey, according to some people here we should be in fear of a German blitzkrieg, I guess. Gotta watch those sneaky Germans after what they did to us at Pearl Harbor. :roll:
 
Coronado said:
The example you gave isn't even remotely relevant.

Pull out of NATO and the various treaties we've entered into and I bet we'll have the money and manpower to build up a military sufficient for our needs.
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We already have a military more than sufficient for our legitimate needs. Right wing paranoia is simply that.
 
OxymoronP said:
So lets destroy the most powerful alliance on this planet that keeps the Russian bear at bay, and start building bunkers. The best defence is offence, thus we need to not only keep our international power but actually expand it.
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Russia can barely keep itself together. The thought of them doing anything to us militarily is laughable.
 
Coronado said:
Hey, according to some people here we should be in fear of a German blitzkrieg, I guess. Gotta watch those sneaky Germans after what they did to us at Pearl Harbor. :roll:
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That's why we still have bases there, of course. You simply can't trust those pesky Germans. You remember 9/11, right?
 
stekim said:
We already have a military more than sufficient for our legitimate needs. Right wing paranoia is simply that.
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Who says the right doesn't like big government programs!
 
Coronado said:
Russia can barely keep itself together. The thought of them doing anything to us militarily is laughable.
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They are doing pretty well for themselves, and their military potential is immense especially on the open tank friendly Europe. If we stick our head into the sand Russia will expand into Europe and China into asia. We will be isolated and at great risk of annhilation.

The right understands that the main point of the goverment is to protect the citizens from outside powers. thus the military should be the paramount concern of the goverment.
 
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stekim said:
That's why we still have bases there, of course. You simply can't trust those pesky Germans. You remember 9/11, right?
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Damn German Nazi Islamist terrorists!
 
OxymoronP said:
They are doing pretty well for themselves, and their military potential is immense especially on the open tank friendly Europe. If we stick our head into the sand Russia will expand into Europe and China into asia. We will be isolated and at great risk of annhilation.
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I know, I know, it's all a conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. :roll:
 
tlmorg02 said:
The U.S. does not view Taiwan as a soverign nation. We are completely observant of the One China policy and have been since the Nixon administration.

Jue | The "One China" Policy: Terms of Art



As you can see, we grant no such recognition to Taiwan.
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Thanks.

Coronado said:
Taiwan not being a country isn't related to this discussion? That's an interesting take. :roll:

Thanks to tlmorg02 for setting you straight.
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All you are doing is using that as evidence when you can't dispute the ramifications of a more aggressive stance by China if they decide to invade Taiwan.

You could of actually commented about my whole post instead of one word I used, but thats fine. It makes my job posting easier.


China is already an authoritarian state that has strongly growing power, it isn't in the interest of the world to allow them to annex people that are not currently in their influence. As I said before, the idea of a "country" is a separate issue from the facts about those people.
 
OxymoronP said:
They are doing pretty well for themselves, and their military potential is immense especially on the open tank friendly Europe. If we stick our head into the sand Russia will expand into Europe and China into asia. We will be isolated and at great risk of annhilation.

The right understands that the main point of the goverment is to protect the citizens from outside powers. thus the military should be the paramount concern of the goverment.
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Russia Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $50 Billion

United States Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $514 Billion (Does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan)

United States Defense Spending Fiscal 2009 with supplementals: $651 Billion (Still does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan).

Once you add in both wars, and off budget items such as Veterans Affairs our total defense expenditures for 2009 are around 1 Trillion dollars which is about 20 times what Russia will spend. Russia would have to devote nearly 50% of its GDP to defense spending to keep up with us.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Russia Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $50 Billion

United States Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $514 Billion (Does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan)

United States Defense Spending Fiscal 2009 with supplementals: $651 Billion (Still does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan).

Once you add in both wars, and off budget items such as Veterans Affairs our total defense expenditures for 2009 are around 1 Trillion dollars which is about 20 times what Russia will spend. Russia would have to devote nearly 50% of its GDP to defense spending to keep up with us.
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You forget that a dollar spent in Russia goes a heck of alot further then in the US. In anycase I didnt say they are catching up to us, but there is no reason to make ourselves weaker internationally just because Russia and CHina arent there yet.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Russia Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $50 Billion

United States Defense Budget Fiscal 2009: $514 Billion (Does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan)

United States Defense Spending Fiscal 2009 with supplementals: $651 Billion (Still does not include spending for wars in Iraq or Afghanistan).

Once you add in both wars, and off budget items such as Veterans Affairs our total defense expenditures for 2009 are around 1 Trillion dollars which is about 20 times what Russia will spend. Russia would have to devote nearly 50% of its GDP to defense spending to keep up with us.
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For the present you are right. Even though I doubt a Sino-Russia alliance because of their history, those nations together may have simillar military spending together once their economies grow more.

We still should work to gain alliances with more nations, that will not get us into wars, for the long term though.
 
OxymoronP said:
You forget that a dollar spent in Russia goes a heck of alot further then in the US. In anycase I didnt say they are catching up to us, but there is no reason to make ourselves weaker internationally just because Russia and CHina arent there yet.
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The numbers accounted for purchasing power parity. China's defense budget is around 70 billion. Neither nation can even remotely compete with us and at the rate they are going, it would take them decades to be able to.

The more we trade with each other and the more our economies depend upon each other, this is especially true with China, the safer we all are. China needs us more than we need them, it would be devastating to their economy to enter into a military conflict with us.
 
nerv14 said:
You could of [sic] actually commented about my whole post instead of one word I used, but thats fine. It makes my job posting easier.
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:roll:
nerv14 said:
China is already an authoritarian state that has strongly growing power, it isn't in the interest of the world to allow them to annex people that are not currently in their influence. As I said before, the idea of a "country" is a separate issue from the facts about those people.
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"Strongly growing power" is not a term that should be used to describe the PRC in any aspect other than economics. They can barely keep a lid on Xinjiang. As noted above, the mainland and Taiwan are more and more closely aligned economically with every passing day. Only ignorant General Jack D. Ripper types who are locked in the 1950's are afraid of a military action against either Taiwan or the US. This is 2009, and those Cold War paradigms no longer apply.
 
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OxymoronP said:
You forget that a dollar spent in Russia goes a heck of alot further then in the US. In anycase I didnt say they are catching up to us, but there is no reason to make ourselves weaker internationally just because Russia and CHina arent there yet.
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In defense of my friend Oxymoron, and to set the record straight, Russia and China are already in an alliance in regards to their continental security from what they percieve as a threat from the U.S. This alliance is called the Shanghai Corporation Organization.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization - Council on Foreign Relations

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)--composed of China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan--was formed as a confidence-building mechanism to resolve border disputes. It has risen in stature since then, making headlines in 2005 when it called for Washington to set a timeline for withdrawing from military bases in Central Asia. Over the past few years, the organization's activities have expanded to include increased military cooperation, intelligence sharing, and counterterrorism drills.
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I will let this speak for itself. To pretend these nations are no threat, is to go to the other extreme from saying they are a dire one.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
The numbers accounted for purchasing power parity. China's defense budget is around 70 billion. Neither nation can even remotely compete with us and at the rate they are going, it would take them decades to be able to.
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This, of course, assumes they even WANT to. China holds trillions of dollars and they have a budget surplus (it's pretty damn funny that we need to take fiscal responsibilty lessons from Communists, but that's another thread). They could easily pour more into defense. But they don't. Because it's not their aim nor their goal to start WWIII. Which is why right wing paranoia is so freakin' hilarious. We don't need to do more to protect ourselves from a threat that doesn't even exist. Same with Russia. They aren't a threat and have no plans to become one. No one is attacking us.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
The numbers accounted for purchasing power parity. China's defense budget is around 70 billion. Neither nation can even remotely compete with us and at the rate they are going, it would take them decades to be able to.

The more we trade with each other and the more our economies depend upon each other, this is especially true with China, the safer we all are. China needs us more than we need them, it would be devastating to their economy to enter into a military conflict with us.
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Do not become over confident on this my friend. China is making strides to create a domestic consumer base, as well as they are strengthening trade relations with the other members of ASEAN and ASEAN plus 3. Only this week China signed a $50 billion oil or natural gas agreement with Australia. Before long, they may indeed not be all that reliant on us.
 
Coronado said:
:roll:
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lol :D
"Strongly growing power" is not a term that should be used to describe the PRC in any aspect other than economics. They can barely keep a lid on Xinjiang. As noted above, the mainland and Taiwan are more and more closely aligned economically with every passing day. Only ignorant General Jack D. Ripper types who are locked in the 1950's are afraid of a military action against either Taiwan or the US. This is 2009, and those Cold War paradigms no longer apply.
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I am reffering to economic strength though, because simillar to the discussion about why Russia isn't much of a threat to Europe today, is because their economy simply can't afford a larger military.

Since China's economy is growing very rapidly now, that means they are slowly gaining the strength to be more influential in the world militarily. It just isn't in most countrie's influence for them to actually flex that growing muscle though.


I don't see the issue of Taiwan and China being more economically connected today. That is great, less chance of conflicts between Taiwan and China.

And as you just said, since we shouldn't be afraid of military action by China against Taiwan then there is no reason that we shouldn't continue to promise military assistance to Taiwan. That is all I am supporting...
 
tlmorg02 said:
Do not become over confident on this my friend. China is making strides to create a domestic consumer base, as well as they are strengthening trade relations with the other members of ASEAN and ASEAN plus 3. Only this week China signed a $50 billion oil or natural gas agreement with Australia. Before long, they may indeed not be all that reliant on us.
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China is desperately trying to keep growing its economy and thus lift it's citizens out of poverty. They are trying to secure energy supplies because they have little in the way of domestic oil supplies and they realize they are in a world where production is peaking. That does not mean they are not dependent on the United States and Western Europe though. Just look at the domestic challenges they face:

65 Million Chinese live in households with more than 20k a year of income. That is there domestic consumer base.

165 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 2k a year and 20k a year. This is their future domestic consumer base.

400 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 1k a year and 2k a year. Even with double digit GDP growth rates, this group is decades away from being a domestic consumer base.

670 Million Chinese live in households that earn less than 1k a year.

Contrast that with the United States where the median household income is 50k a year. Even with sustained double digit GDP growth rates it will take China at least 100 years to catch up to us - and that is if we were to have abysmal growth here the entire time.

I would also point out that while we can easily project power anywhere in the world, China's military is primarily a domestic security force.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
China is desperately trying to keep growing its economy and thus lift it's citizens out of poverty. They are trying to secure energy supplies because they have little in the way of domestic oil supplies and they realize they are in a world where production is peaking. That does not mean they are not dependent on the United States and Western Europe though. Just look at the domestic challenges they face:

65 Million Chinese live in households with more than 20k a year of income. That is there domestic consumer base.

165 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 2k a year and 20k a year. This is their future domestic consumer base.

400 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 1k a year and 2k a year. Even with double digit GDP growth rates, this group is decades away from being a domestic consumer base.

670 Million Chinese live in households that earn less than 1k a year.

Contrast that with the United States where the median household income is 50k a year. Even with sustained double digit GDP growth rates it will take China at least 100 years to catch up to us - and that is if we were to have abysmal growth here the entire time.
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I did not say that they were not currently dependent on us. I said that they are moving toward liberating themselves from us. For one, the whole Xingjiang unrest and battle, at least in the eyes of Chinese officials is about protecting natural gas and oil reserves, which are estimated to be huge. Also, lets not forget that Central Asia, which the Shanghai Corporation Organization looks to rid the U.S. from the region, is thought to be the future center of energy reserves as well. For the U.S. to ignore these facts, or the fact that while the majority of China is indeed poor, the wage rate of increase is around 13.4% per year. In this mad rush forward China will indeed eclipse the U.S. economy by 2015, forgoing a massive economic failure.

Lastly, we may not forget the huge amounts of U.S. debt that China currently owns, somewhere around $4.5 trillion. If they end their loaning practices, we are up a **** creek my friend.

Oh, as you may well know 20-30 years is not a long time in the scheme of things. Look how far China has come in the past 20 so odd years.
 
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tlmorg02 said:
I did not say that they were not currently dependent on us. I said that they are moving toward liberating themselves from us. For one, the whole Xingjiang unrest and battle, at least in the eyes of Chinese officials is about protecting natural gas and oil reserves, which are estimated to be huge. Also, lets not forget that Central Asia, which the Shanghai Corporation Organization looks to rid the U.S. from the region, is thought to be the future center of energy reserves as well. For the U.S. to ignore these facts, or the fact that while the majority of China is indeed poor, the wage rate of increase is around 13.4% per year. In this mad rush forward China will indeed eclipse the U.S. economy by 2015, forgoing a massive economic failure.

Lastly, we may not forget the huge amounts of U.S. debt that China currently owns, somewhere around $4.5 trillion. If they end their loaning practices, we are up a **** creek my friend.

Oh, as you may well know 20-30 years is not a long time in the scheme of things. Look how far China has come in the past 20 so odd years.
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Our GDP is nearly 14 Trillion, China's GPD is 3 Trillion. There is no way they will eclipse us by 2015.

China is dependent on western companies investing huge amounts of money in China and its government's entire focus is on entering into partnerships with those companies. China is a competitor, not an enemy. China can't even take on Japan's navy, much less ours. The Chinese government does not fear the United States, it fears its own people.

I have spent time in China in 2007 and just this summer. The Chinese people all and all really like us. I don't think we have anything to worry about with them. Globalism ultimately brings about more peace and security than the strongest military could.
 
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SouthernDemocrat said:
Our GDP is nearly 14 Trillion, China's GPD is 3 Trillion. There is no way they will eclipse us by 2015.
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Not by 2015. But eventually. There is simply no way for a country of 300 million to keep one with 1.4 billion at bay, provided, of course, the larger country is also capitalist. And since China is more capitalist than we are, it's going to happen. Especially on a purchasing power parity basis where China is already the third largest economy and closing in on Japan.

I have spent time in China in 2007 and just this summer. The Chinese people all and all really like us. I don't think we have anything to worry about with them. Globalism ultimately brings about more peace and security than the strongest military could.
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Which goes to my earlier point. They have no intention of attacking us.
 
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