Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 6789 LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 85

Thread: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

  1. #71
    Educator nerv14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Last Seen
    02-07-11 @ 07:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    601

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    lol
    "Strongly growing power" is not a term that should be used to describe the PRC in any aspect other than economics. They can barely keep a lid on Xinjiang. As noted above, the mainland and Taiwan are more and more closely aligned economically with every passing day. Only ignorant General Jack D. Ripper types who are locked in the 1950's are afraid of a military action against either Taiwan or the US. This is 2009, and those Cold War paradigms no longer apply.
    I am reffering to economic strength though, because simillar to the discussion about why Russia isn't much of a threat to Europe today, is because their economy simply can't afford a larger military.

    Since China's economy is growing very rapidly now, that means they are slowly gaining the strength to be more influential in the world militarily. It just isn't in most countrie's influence for them to actually flex that growing muscle though.


    I don't see the issue of Taiwan and China being more economically connected today. That is great, less chance of conflicts between Taiwan and China.

    And as you just said, since we shouldn't be afraid of military action by China against Taiwan then there is no reason that we shouldn't continue to promise military assistance to Taiwan. That is all I am supporting...

  2. #72
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,400

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Do not become over confident on this my friend. China is making strides to create a domestic consumer base, as well as they are strengthening trade relations with the other members of ASEAN and ASEAN plus 3. Only this week China signed a $50 billion oil or natural gas agreement with Australia. Before long, they may indeed not be all that reliant on us.
    China is desperately trying to keep growing its economy and thus lift it's citizens out of poverty. They are trying to secure energy supplies because they have little in the way of domestic oil supplies and they realize they are in a world where production is peaking. That does not mean they are not dependent on the United States and Western Europe though. Just look at the domestic challenges they face:

    65 Million Chinese live in households with more than 20k a year of income. That is there domestic consumer base.

    165 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 2k a year and 20k a year. This is their future domestic consumer base.

    400 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 1k a year and 2k a year. Even with double digit GDP growth rates, this group is decades away from being a domestic consumer base.

    670 Million Chinese live in households that earn less than 1k a year.

    Contrast that with the United States where the median household income is 50k a year. Even with sustained double digit GDP growth rates it will take China at least 100 years to catch up to us - and that is if we were to have abysmal growth here the entire time.

    I would also point out that while we can easily project power anywhere in the world, China's military is primarily a domestic security force.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 09-01-09 at 04:16 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  3. #73
    Guru
    tlmorg02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Last Seen
    07-23-15 @ 11:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    3,347

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    China is desperately trying to keep growing its economy and thus lift it's citizens out of poverty. They are trying to secure energy supplies because they have little in the way of domestic oil supplies and they realize they are in a world where production is peaking. That does not mean they are not dependent on the United States and Western Europe though. Just look at the domestic challenges they face:

    65 Million Chinese live in households with more than 20k a year of income. That is there domestic consumer base.

    165 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 2k a year and 20k a year. This is their future domestic consumer base.

    400 Million Chinese live in households that earn between 1k a year and 2k a year. Even with double digit GDP growth rates, this group is decades away from being a domestic consumer base.

    670 Million Chinese live in households that earn less than 1k a year.

    Contrast that with the United States where the median household income is 50k a year. Even with sustained double digit GDP growth rates it will take China at least 100 years to catch up to us - and that is if we were to have abysmal growth here the entire time.
    I did not say that they were not currently dependent on us. I said that they are moving toward liberating themselves from us. For one, the whole Xingjiang unrest and battle, at least in the eyes of Chinese officials is about protecting natural gas and oil reserves, which are estimated to be huge. Also, lets not forget that Central Asia, which the Shanghai Corporation Organization looks to rid the U.S. from the region, is thought to be the future center of energy reserves as well. For the U.S. to ignore these facts, or the fact that while the majority of China is indeed poor, the wage rate of increase is around 13.4% per year. In this mad rush forward China will indeed eclipse the U.S. economy by 2015, forgoing a massive economic failure.

    Lastly, we may not forget the huge amounts of U.S. debt that China currently owns, somewhere around $4.5 trillion. If they end their loaning practices, we are up a **** creek my friend.

    Oh, as you may well know 20-30 years is not a long time in the scheme of things. Look how far China has come in the past 20 so odd years.
    Last edited by tlmorg02; 09-01-09 at 04:23 PM.

  4. #74
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,400

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I did not say that they were not currently dependent on us. I said that they are moving toward liberating themselves from us. For one, the whole Xingjiang unrest and battle, at least in the eyes of Chinese officials is about protecting natural gas and oil reserves, which are estimated to be huge. Also, lets not forget that Central Asia, which the Shanghai Corporation Organization looks to rid the U.S. from the region, is thought to be the future center of energy reserves as well. For the U.S. to ignore these facts, or the fact that while the majority of China is indeed poor, the wage rate of increase is around 13.4% per year. In this mad rush forward China will indeed eclipse the U.S. economy by 2015, forgoing a massive economic failure.

    Lastly, we may not forget the huge amounts of U.S. debt that China currently owns, somewhere around $4.5 trillion. If they end their loaning practices, we are up a **** creek my friend.

    Oh, as you may well know 20-30 years is not a long time in the scheme of things. Look how far China has come in the past 20 so odd years.
    Our GDP is nearly 14 Trillion, China's GPD is 3 Trillion. There is no way they will eclipse us by 2015.

    China is dependent on western companies investing huge amounts of money in China and its government's entire focus is on entering into partnerships with those companies. China is a competitor, not an enemy. China can't even take on Japan's navy, much less ours. The Chinese government does not fear the United States, it fears its own people.

    I have spent time in China in 2007 and just this summer. The Chinese people all and all really like us. I don't think we have anything to worry about with them. Globalism ultimately brings about more peace and security than the strongest military could.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 09-01-09 at 04:29 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  5. #75
    Walk with me in hell.
    stekim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    09-21-10 @ 12:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,106

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Our GDP is nearly 14 Trillion, China's GPD is 3 Trillion. There is no way they will eclipse us by 2015.
    Not by 2015. But eventually. There is simply no way for a country of 300 million to keep one with 1.4 billion at bay, provided, of course, the larger country is also capitalist. And since China is more capitalist than we are, it's going to happen. Especially on a purchasing power parity basis where China is already the third largest economy and closing in on Japan.

    I have spent time in China in 2007 and just this summer. The Chinese people all and all really like us. I don't think we have anything to worry about with them. Globalism ultimately brings about more peace and security than the strongest military could.
    Which goes to my earlier point. They have no intention of attacking us.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

  6. #76
    Guru
    tlmorg02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Last Seen
    07-23-15 @ 11:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    3,347

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Our GDP is nearly 14 Trillion, China's GPD is 3 Trillion. There is no way they will eclipse us by 2015.

    China is dependent on western companies investing huge amounts of money in China and its government's entire focus is on entering into partnerships with those companies. China is a competitor, not an enemy. China can't even take on Japan's navy, much less ours. The Chinese government does not fear the United States, it fears its own people.

    I have spent time in China in 2007 and just this summer. The Chinese people all and all really like us. I don't think we have anything to worry about with them. Globalism ultimately brings about more peace and security than the strongest military could.
    Here is what you are overlooking. Our GDP is elusive as we are in great deficit and debt, therefor there exists no free money. China, on the other hand is closing the gap on actual free capital GDP. Therefor by 2015 they will eclipse us.

  7. #77
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,400

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Here is what you are overlooking. Our GDP is elusive as we are in great deficit and debt, therefor there exists no free money. China, on the other hand is closing the gap on actual free capital GDP. Therefor by 2015 they will eclipse us.
    The reason why China's government is swimming in money is that it taxes its citizens heavily, spends a fraction what we spend on defense, and spends very little in terms of social spending (Public Schools, Social Insurance, Safetynets and so on). Basically they dump all their money into infrastructure and subsidizing development.

    That is ultimately untenable for China. The populace there is already demanding more services in exchange for their heavy taxation (depending on income level). Imagine living in a country where your total effective taxation is higher than it is here, yet in many cases you don't even get public schools for your kids. You get no social security, no medicare, no unemployment. The reason why personal savings rates are so high there is because you are on your own. Which is fine, except for the fact that your taxes are also high. As more of their citizens move into the middle class they will demand the same services out of their government that every other developed nation has, and China will ulitmately find itself in the same fiscal situation that virtually every other developed nation ends up in.

    The fact is, China's long term problems make ours look easy.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 09-01-09 at 06:01 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  8. #78
    Clown Prince of Politics
    Psychoclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hiding from the voices in my head.
    Last Seen
    11-25-17 @ 12:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,738

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    I don't see any national interest worth fighting a war against China to defend Tiawan. During the Cold War it might have made some sense under the policy of containment, but we need to move away from the Cold War mentality.

    Taiwan is a region China has a reasonable historical claim on and is clearly in their natural sphere of influence. And as others have pointed out, with Taiwan and China already deepening economic ties with each other, its a moot point. Tiawan will come under Chinese influence naturally, so there is no need for a military conflict.

    Taiwan is a perfect example of an area where we need scale back our involvement. We should be encouraging China and Taiwan to re-unite under terms similar to what Hong Kong got, thereby removing one of the world's possible "flash points".

    We don't need to play the world's policeman. It makes little different to the American economy or national security if Taiwan is independent or somehow reunited with China, so why commit ourselves to a potential war where we have no vested interest?
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  9. #79
    Advisor Sanitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The world.
    Last Seen
    03-05-12 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    459

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    Why didnt Truman listen to MacArthur, we should have glassed Shanghai when we had the chance.
    No offense, but, sometimes you take the most ridiculous opinion available.

    Scenario: The ROC makes an attempt at formally declaring independence, the PRC gets pissed and sends missiles into Taiwan as warning shots. Taiwan goes ahead and formally declares independence anyway, the PRC invades.
    Taiwan or "Chinese Taipai" has a history of being abused by China. I'm quite uniformed, however. Has there been any recent news that signified a fight for independence?
    "All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

  10. #80
    User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Last Seen
    01-13-10 @ 08:29 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    146

    Re: Is the Republic of China (Taiwan) worth protecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanitas View Post
    No offense, but, sometimes you take the most ridiculous opinion available.



    Taiwan or "Chinese Taipai" has a history of being abused by China. I'm quite uniformed, however. Has there been any recent news that signified a fight for independence?

    No, there has been no significant call for independence in Taiwan recently. But the situation is pretty volatile in Taiwan, slight differences in wording can sway public opinion and diplomatic ties with the PRC.

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 6789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •