View Poll Results: Should healthcare insurance be mandatory for everyone?

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Thread: Healthcare mandatory?

  1. #91
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh because they did nothing and allowed someone to die who was fully able to pay for his medical costs. If someone in my family died because the hospital did absolutely nothing to treat them, you bet your ass I'd be on the phone with a lawyer to sue them.
    On what grounds?
    Can you show that the hospital could reasonably have known that he could pay, did not make an honest effort to make that determination, or was negligent on making that determination?

    A hospital is not a bank. Very often, they don't have access to any/much information about the patient when they have to make that decision. Do you really want hospitals to start refusing emergency care to anyone who doesn't have an insurance card in their pocket at the time of their emergency?
    In any and every other aspect of life, even those that deal with the necessities of life, if you cannot pay, or cannot show that you are good for the bill, you are denied goods and services. No reason health care should be any different.

    This system is ridiculous and impractical, and the fact that you are even suggesting it means that you have your head in the clouds and don't want to deal with the real world.
    If that's the best response you can muster, I'll take that as your concession of the point.

  2. #92
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Does your bizarre stance toward hospital service apply to ambulance service as well?
    Bizzare? Beacuse you dont agree? How self-important of you.

    What part of these three tenets do you not agree with, and why?

    -People are responsible for themselves;
    -People have the right to be compenstated for the goods and services they provide;
    -Having a right to something does not equate to having the right to have others provide you the means to exercise that right.

  3. #93
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    On what grounds?
    Can you show that the hospital could reasonably have known that he could pay, did not make an honest effort to make that determination, or was negligent on making that determination?
    If I have a family member with health insurance, it is an EXPECTATION that the hospital will provide him with emergency service should he or she need it. Ambulance drivers rely on that same expectation; had they known the hospital was going to **** around and waste time trying to find an insurance card, they probably could have taken him to a different hospital.

    Furthermore, this degrades ALL emergency care if the first thing everyone does is rummage through the patient's pockets for an insurance card, instead of trying to stop the blood loss.

    Honestly, this is common sense. I can't believe I actually have to explain all the ways in which this plan is retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    In any and every other aspect of life, even those that deal with the necessities of life, if you cannot pay, or cannot show that you are good for the bill, you are denied goods and services. No reason health care should be any different.
    Buying food and an apartment are not immediate, life-threatening needs where seconds count.
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  4. #94
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Bizzare? Beacuse you dont agree? How self-important of you.

    What part of these three tenets do you not agree with, and why?

    -People are responsible for themselves;
    -People have the right to be compenstated for the goods and services they provide;
    -Having a right to something does not equate to having the right to have others provide you the means to exercise that right.
    Those are the three maxims you live your life by, aren't they? Unfortunately for you, the real world is not that simple. The fact that one can deduce your position on any given issue from a few cliches shows that you are not thinking critically.
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  5. #95
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If I have a family member with health insurance, it is an EXPECTATION that the hospital will provide him with emergency service should he or she need it.
    Assuming that the hospital knows that he has insurance, sure -- and if you can show thay they knew, or reasonably should have known that he did have insurance and di dnot render that service, then you have a case.
    Else, you do not.

    Furthermore, this degrades ALL emergency care if the first thing everyone does is rummage through the patient's pockets for an insurance card, instead of trying to stop the blood loss.
    Aside from the fact this has already been addressed, the part you forget is that the health care provider can always decide to take the risk upon himself.

    Honestly, this is common sense.
    The appeal to "Common sense" is the usual code for "I really dont have any real way of backing myself up, so I'll make some false appeal to some false authority".

    Buying food and an apartment are not immediate, life-threatening needs where seconds count.
    Irrelevant - a necessity is a necessity, and you certainly -can- be refused a necessity when you cannot show that you are able to pay.

  6. #96
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Those are the three maxims you live your life by, aren't they? Unfortunately for you, the real world is not that simple. The fact that one can deduce your position on any given issue from a few cliches shows that you are not thinking critically.
    Wow.
    I knew you'd dodge the question, but I thought you'd be more subtle.

    Answer the question:
    Which of those three tenets do you not agree with, and why?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 09-01-09 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #97
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Assuming that the hospital knows that he has insurance, sure -- and if you can show thay they knew, or reasonably should have known that he did have insurance and di dnot render that service, then you have a case.
    Else, you do not.
    Then what the hell is the purpose of having emergency rooms at all?

    Furthermore, why should being able to show that they knew about the insurance matter? Do you support forcing emergency rooms to accept people who DO have insurance...or should they be able to refuse anyone they want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Aside from the fact this has already been addressed, the part you forget is that the health care provider can always decide to take the risk upon himself.
    Impractical. Hospitals are a business. Some are for-profit and some are non-profit, but they're all concerned about their expenses. Most hospitals are not going to voluntarily take such a large cost upon themselves.

    Oh, and you DIDN'T address it. How would it not degrade the overall quality of emergency room care if the first thing everyone did was rummage through the patients' pockets for an insurance card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Irrelevant - a necessity is a necessity, and you certainly -can- be refused a necessity when you cannot show that you are able to pay.
    Ya but if you can't afford food and McDonald's won't give it to you for free, you can go beg for change out front, or you can try your luck at the next restaurant down the street. You can't do that with emergency room care.

    Furthermore, we have a food stamp program in this country so that that isn't a necessity...but naturally, I assume you're against that too, since I can deduce your position on anything from the cliches you provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Answer the question:
    Which of these three tenets do you not agree with, and why?
    I don't live my life according to unbending "tenets" (i.e. cliches) that don't take into account the context of the situation. Unlike you, I actually think about issues critically instead of adopting rigid dogmas.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-01-09 at 02:04 PM.
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  8. #98
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Then what the hell is the purpose of having emergency rooms at all?
    That's an absurdly silly question.

    Furthermore, why should being able to show that they knew about the insurance matter?
    Because it shows that they deliberately denied service for someone they knew could pay?

    Impractical. Hospitals are a business.
    Its not impractical, its just bad business, if done too often.
    But, that doesnt change the fact that the choice exists.

    Oh, and you DIDN'T address it. How would it not degrade the overall quality of emergency room care if the first thing everyone did was rummage through the patients' pockets for an insurance card?
    Sure I did -- you jusnt didn't pick up on it.
    The entire idea 'degrades' the overall quality of emergency health care because it delays the inception of care to some degree in some number of cases. But, the issue under discussion doesnt revolve around 'overall quality', and so, any argument regarding said degredation is meaningless, especialy given that my posiiton accepts the eventuality that some people will not receive any health care at all.

    Ya but...
    Ya but? As in, "Yes, however..."?
    So you agree with me, that you CAN be denied necessities if you cannot show that you can pay for therm.
    Thanks. Not sure how you have anything left to argue.

    Furthermore, we have a food stamp program in this country so that that isn't a necessity...but naturally, I assume you're against that too...
    Naturally, for the reasosn I have given, and that you have failed to counter.

    I don't live my life according to unbending "tenets" (i.e. cliches) that don't take into account the context of the situation. Unlike you, I actually think about issues critically instead of adopting rigid dogmas.
    Another dodge, and another lack of surprise on my part.

    When you decide to NOT dodge the question, get back to me.

  9. #99
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think it's generally implied when discussing health care mandates that they would be coupled with some kind of assistance for those who can't afford it. In the current health care debate, I have never heard anyone who believes that health care should be mandatory but no assistance should be given.
    That may be. But you still have the fact that while it might be "fair" to mandate that people have health care insurance it does not mean that it is right to do so. No matter how you couch it, it will still be charging someone for simply living.

    Earlier someone mentioned that "it is no different than mandating car insurance". Sorry don't remember who it was and don't really feel like going through the thread to find it again. I would just like to point out that no one HAS to have car insurance. It just means that you can't legally drive if you don't have one.
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  10. #100
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    Re: Healthcare mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    That may be. But you still have the fact that while it might be "fair" to mandate that people have health care insurance it does not mean that it is right to do so. No matter how you couch it, it will still be charging someone for simply living.

    Earlier someone mentioned that "it is no different than mandating car insurance". Sorry don't remember who it was and don't really feel like going through the thread to find it again. I would just like to point out that no one HAS to have car insurance. It just means that you can't legally drive if you don't have one.
    It falls under social contract. In order to drive on U.S. roads you must have car insurance. In order to live on U.S. soil, you should be required to have catastrophic health insurance. We see these kinds of "social contracts" at all levels of government. For example, as a price of living in the community I live in, I cannot have my grass ass high out front. As a price of living in the United States, you can't just dump your motor oil out in the front yard rather than disposing of it properly.

    Now, the problem as I see it with requiring individuals to have a catastrophic policy is that it violates the principle of self ownership. I own me, thus why do I have to insure me? The counter to that though, is that if I own me and you own you, why am I having to bear the financial risk of you choosing not to have a catastrophic policy?
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 09-01-09 at 06:22 PM.
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