View Poll Results: Are ANY government regulations of the 2nd Amendment acceptable?

Voters
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  • No. It's a Constitutional Right & no regulatioins are acceptable.

    39 41.05%
  • Yes. Reasonable regulations are acceptable.

    45 47.37%
  • A law abiding citizen should have the right to own & carry full auto weapons.

    22 23.16%
  • A law abiding citizen should have the right to own & carry flame throwers.

    11 11.58%
  • A law abiding citizen should have the right to own & carry tactical nukes.

    1 1.05%
  • gun restrictions are necessary to prevent unauthorized use by nuts.

    16 16.84%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

  1. #211
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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    "Well regulated" is a part of the second amendment.
    It however refers to militias not arms.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    True. But just because it does little to nothing does not mean that we shouldn't try at all.

    No, but we need to focus on the commission of violent crime, committed by human people, rather than the inanimate object, the gun.

    Too many violent criminals get out on bond and commit more violent crimes, sometimes repeatedly getting out on bail, before ever being tried for the first offense.

    We have people who have criminal records as long as your arm out walking the streets, and committing more crimes... this should not happen.

    People who do certain serious felony crimes, that have a component of violence that could result in very grave bodily harm or death, or that clearly indicate no respect whatsoever for the lives of others, should never get out of prison after the first time. Ditto 3rd-time felons of lesser but still serious crimes.

    If a criminal gets out on bond once, and commits another felony, he should be incarcerated until trial, held without bond, since he is a proven danger to the community.

    Do these things and violent crime will decrease. Once these things are done, then maybe we can talk about whether gun control is really needed or not.

    See, I've seen this pattern I don't know how many times. Teenagers commit misdemeanors, spend an hour in jail, get picked up by Momma, a judge talks to them sternly weeks later, and that's it. They graduate to more serious crimes, like grand theft, and get six months in Juvie, get out and do it again.
    They grow up and continue to commit crimes of an ever-increasingly serious nature. Often they don't get caught; when they do they usually get probation or time-served. They keep pushing the envelope, and then one day they kill someone... and we act like we didn't see it coming.

    If people are throwing bricks off an overpass onto the cars below, we don't need brick control, we need to stop the people doing it.

    If people are committing crimes with guns (and other weapons and objects), we don't need gun control (inanimate object control), we need criminal control.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-23-09 at 04:24 PM.

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    True. But just because it does little to nothing does not mean that we shouldn't try at all.
    I disagree.

    IMO, because gun control limits the access law-abiding citizens have to firearms, it increases the risk of crime because non-criminals are less likely to have guns, and therefore are more likely targets.

    So the argument against it is not "it does nothing, so we shouldn't use it", but "it has a negative and opposite effect from what it was intended to do, so we shouldn't use it".
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  4. #214
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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No, but we need to focus on the commission of violent crime, committed by human people, rather than the inanimate object, the gun.

    Too many violent criminals get out on bond and commit more violent crimes, sometimes repeatedly getting out on bail, before ever being tried for the first offense.

    We have people who have criminal records as long as your arm out walking the streets, and committing more crimes... this should not happen.

    People who do certain serious felony crimes, that have a component of violence that could result in very grave bodily harm or death, or that clearly indicate no respect whatsoever for the lives of others, should never get out of prison after the first time. Ditto 3rd-time felons of lesser but still serious crimes.

    If a criminal gets out on bond once, and commits another felony, he should be incarcerated until trial, held without bond, since he is a proven danger to the community.

    Do these things and violent crime will decrease. Once these things are done, then maybe we can talk about whether gun control is really needed or not.

    See, I've seen this pattern I don't know how many times. Teenagers commit misdemeanors, spend an hour in jail, get picked up by Momma, a judge talks to them sternly weeks later, and that's it. They graduate to more serious crimes, like grand theft, and get six months in Juvie, get out and do it again.
    They grow up and continue to commit crimes of an ever-increasingly serious nature. Often they don't get caught; when they do they usually get probation or time-served. They keep pushing the envelope, and then one day they kill someone... and we act like we didn't see it coming.

    If people are throwing bricks off an overpass onto the cars below, we don't need brick control, we need to stop the people doing it.

    If people are committing crimes with guns (and other weapons and objects), we don't need gun control (inanimate object control), we need criminal control.
    I generally agree with this. The problem is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty for the most part. It is this belief (which I agree with) that makes it to where it is hard to regulate/prevent people from committing crimes. That and the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause in the Amendments. This leaves pretty much the only way to try to curb violence is to regulate guns.

    Tell me what would you do to stop people from committing crimes? Besides keeping those out on bond in jail instead.
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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I generally agree with this. The problem is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty for the most part. It is this belief (which I agree with) that makes it to where it is hard to regulate/prevent people from committing crimes. That and the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause in the Amendments. This leaves pretty much the only way to try to curb violence is to regulate guns.

    Tell me what would you do to stop people from committing crimes? Besides keeping those out on bond in jail instead.
    Let me address the bolded statement first: it is incorrect, in fact fallacious.

    First of all, many violent crimes (last time I checked I think 40%?) are committed with weapons other than firearms. Knives, clubs, hammers, bricks, bats, pipes... even swords and machetes. If you could wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish at once, you'd simply cause most criminals and crazies to switch to blades, bashers and maybe even crossbows. For an example of why no guns does not equal no violence, see Middle Ages.

    Nonetheless, many studies have shown that gun control laws do little, if anything, to curb violence. Some researchers suggest they may even increase it, in cases where the law primarily interferes with the right of the law-abiding to possess weapons (ie DC, Chicago).

    Criminals mainly get guns from other criminals, who mostly steal them. Laws don't affect these transactions because criminals don't obey the law.

    We have been singularly ineffective in keeping marijuana-by-the-ton from being smuggled in across the borders and via the coast... there's no reason to believe guns could be kept from being smuggled in and sold on the black market.

    Guns can be manufactured in a small machine shop using cheap secondhand machine tools. Ammo can literally be made in your garage.

    Keeping guns out of the hands of criminals is frankly impractical and unlikely, and tends not to work everywhere it is tried.

    To get back on point, you're missing the point of my argument. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not the issue: If someone is convicted of a serious violent crime, keep them in prison and never let them out. If someone is out on bond under charge of one felony and is arrested for a new felony, it is within our legal system to deny them bond as a threat to the community.

    People rarely become armed robbers or murderers overnight. More commonly they have a record a mile long before they go that far. If we had "3 strikes" applied in a more consistent and universal manner, got "plea-bargaining" under control, and put these habitual felons in prison for life on the 3rd felony, we'd short-circuit the process by which a habitual offender becomes a murderer.

    These sorts of measures are legally do-able and would be far more effective than trying to control inanimate objects.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-23-09 at 05:41 PM.

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  6. #216
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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Let me address the bolded statement first: it is incorrect, in fact fallacious.

    First of all, many violent crimes (last time I checked I think 40%?) are committed with weapons other than firearms. Knives, clubs, hammers, bricks, bats, pipes... even swords and machetes. If you could wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish at once, you'd simply cause most criminals and crazies to switch to blades, bashers and maybe even crossbows. For an example of why no guns does not equal no violence, see Middle Ages.
    My apologies. I did not intend to single out guns per se. I should have said "arms" instead as that includes all other forms of weapons.

    My post wasn't meant to defend gun laws as I believe that they are not only ineffective but also against the constitution. I was just showing reasons why the "item" is regulated instead of the people.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    My apologies. I did not intend to single out guns per se. I should have said "arms" instead as that includes all other forms of weapons.

    My post wasn't meant to defend gun laws as I believe that they are not only ineffective but also against the constitution. I was just showing reasons why the "item" is regulated instead of the people.
    Ah, beg pardon, I misunderstood you then.

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Which is the problem: most gun control does little or nothing to keep guns from criminals, but only restricts or inconveniences the law-abiding.
    I disagree. Gun control will never stop hard core criminals from getting them but it stops crazies/wackos from running around killing people every day.
    (you know....The 18 yr old wacko son of the law abiding citizen. The kid that is suicidal & loves to pull the wings off live birds, tortures small animals & roots for Michael Vick!)
    Last edited by Devil505; 08-23-09 at 06:55 PM.

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    I disagree. Gun control will never stop hard core criminals from getting them but it stops crazies/wackos from running around killing people every day.
    (you know....The 18 yr old wacko son of the law abiding citizen. The kid that is suicidal & loves to pull the wings off live birds, tortures small animals & roots for Michael Vick!)
    That sounds more like a parental issue than a gun control issue.

    Address that part of the issue, as IMO, they will, as criminals, find a way.
    Education.

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    Re: Should There Be Any Regulations To 2nd Amnendment Rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That sounds more like a parental issue than a gun control issue.

    Address that part of the issue, as IMO, they will, as criminals, find a way.
    Tell me how to word legislation to make good parents?

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