View Poll Results: Is Big Government the answer to America's problems??

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  • Yes

    15 23.81%
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    10 15.87%
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Thread: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

  1. #21
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Actually WWII helped us out of the great depression. The government programs just extended the time it would have lasted.
    WW2 was a goverment program BTW

    I can't think of even one instance where the government has receded from anything after getting involved. If you can think of one let me know
    Draft, interning American citizens in camps.


    THE GREATEST FREEDOM IS THE FREEDOM TO OPPRESS OTHERS

  2. #22
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    WW2 was a goverment program BTW
    Hehehehe!

    In a manor of speaking, but irrelevant to his point or mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    Draft, interning American citizens in camps.
    Now they just extend the persons stay indefinitely.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 08-20-09 at 10:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #23
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Actually WWII helped us out of the great depression. The government programs just extended the time it would have lasted.

    I can't think of even one instance where the government has receded from anything after getting involved. If you can think of one let me know.
    WWII was a contributing factor, but the Middle Class would not have bounced back so strong if it were not for the changes made by FDR to level the playing field with the New Deal.

    The government has receded on many things, the biggest, and unfortunately most costly was in banking and market regulation. The government eased oversight and as a result we have a recession and Bernie Madoff.

  4. #24
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
    With a program for this, an entitlement for that, an allocation for the other thing I really have to throw this question out there, and I would like you folks (especially on the Left) to answer honestly.

    Does anyone really think that Governmenet, especially Big Government is the answer to America's problems?
    not so simple OR straightforward. depends on the problem, don't you think?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  5. #25
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    WWII was a contributing factor, but the Middle Class would not have bounced back so strong if it were not for the changes made by FDR to level the playing field with the New Deal.
    "The National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, in particular, gets a lot of blame. It created the National Recovery Administration, a federal bureaucracy that limited competition in various industries by setting prices and wages above market levels. The ensuing upward pressure on the price of goods and unemployment may have turned a bad situation worse. While it benefited some producers, the NRA's policies meant basic goods were more expensive for consumers and jobs harder to come by for people who were already in dire straits." - Did the New Deal Work? - US News and World Report

    Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    The government has receded on many things, the biggest, and unfortunately most costly was in banking and market regulation. The government eased oversight and as a result we have a recession and Bernie Madoff.
    Less over site on one aspect of the market is not receding. It was the government intervention in banking that caused the problem in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #26
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    "The National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, in particular, gets a lot of blame. It created the National Recovery Administration, a federal bureaucracy that limited competition in various industries by setting prices and wages above market levels. The ensuing upward pressure on the price of goods and unemployment may have turned a bad situation worse. While it benefited some producers, the NRA's policies meant basic goods were more expensive for consumers and jobs harder to come by for people who were already in dire straits." - Did the New Deal Work? - US News and World Report

    Not so much.
    From the same article:

    In 1995, economist Robert Whaples of Wake Forest University published a survey of academic economists that asked them if they agreed with the statement, "Taken as a whole, government policies of the New Deal served to lengthen and deepen the Great Depression." Fifty-one percent disagreed, and 49 percent agreed. Whaples today says that the New Deal remains a thorny issue for economists because it's so difficult to measure the effects it had on the country. "You need a credible model of the economy, and not everyone is going to agree on what that model should be," he says.
    I think that you used your source a bit misleadingly there. And I disagree, if the government would have had it's eye on the predatory lending practices, this recession may have been avoided.

  7. #27
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    From the same article:

    I think that you used your source a bit misleadingly there. And I disagree, if the government would have had it's eye on the predatory lending practices, this recession may have been avoided.
    Misleading how? It clearly states economists are split in general, but you used a specific example of the middle class. So I took the information specifically relating to that.

    It's the governments fault the bad lending practices where started in the first place. US government policy, by encouraging banks to lend to people with poor credit records, was a contributory factor in undermining US banks. You cannot deny it was the leading contributor.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 08-20-09 at 11:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #28
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Misleading how? It clearly states economists are split in general, but you used a specific example of the middle class. So I took the information specifically relating to that.

    It's the governments fault the bad lending practices where started in the first place. US government policy, by encouraging banks to lend to people with poor credit records, was a contributory factor in undermining US banks. You cannot deny it was the leading contributor.
    Take this for example:
    A product of the early industrial era, the second American middle class was largely limited to the industrial states of the Northeast and the Midwest. Unlike the factory workers in those states, the rural majority in the South and the West did not share in the income gains from industrialization; tariffs were, in effect, a tax imposed on them to subsidize urban workers and capitalists. The protectionist system also hurt the professional elite, because it raised prices on high-end consumer goods. Economics goes a long way toward explaining why elite progressives from the North teamed up with southern and western populists in the New Deal coalition that lasted from 1932 until the 1960s. The New Dealers created the third American middle class.

    Whereas the second American middle class was founded on high wages for workers in the industrial sector, the third American middle class was founded on the supplementation of wage income by government benefits that collectively constituted a "social wage." The social wage included not only private-sector benefits encouraged by the tax code, such as employer-provided health insurance, but also subsidies such as the home-mortgage-interest deduction and government entitlements such as Social Security and Medicare (which freed many middle-class families from the bankrupting burden of caring for elderly parents), the GI Bill for higher education, and student loans. As the Yale political scientist Jacob Hacker has pointed out, when the hidden welfare state is counted along with the visible welfare state, the United States has a system of social provision as generous as those in Western Europe -- though in this country much of that system extends only to the middle class and the professional elite.

    The social-wage system had many flaws -- for example, it failed to provide health insurance for tens of millions of Americans. Nevertheless, the third American middle class, the product of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal, Harry Truman's Fair Deal, and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, was larger and more inclusive than the earlier two. From the 1930s to the 1970s income inequality in America shrank dramatically, producing what the economic historians Claudia Goldin and Robert Margo have called the Great Compression.
    Are We Still a Middle-Class Nation? | The New America Foundation

    As you can clearly see, and there are more citations I can produce, most historians agree that it was FDR that set-off, with the New Deal, the modern Middle Class. The high taxes and such referred to by your source, refers to high-end items that in those days were limited to the richer folks, so it is misleading.

    As to the government contributing to the problem of this current recession, I agree they played a part, but not the major part. Banks were knowingly selling bad loans into the market in order to protect themselves from their own practice. Then, once the market stopped purchasing these loans, were stuck with their own creation. The government certainly encouraged some lending to questionable borrowers, but not at the risk level banks took things to.
    Last edited by tlmorg02; 08-20-09 at 11:25 AM.

  9. #29
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Take this for example:
    Are We Still a Middle-Class Nation? | The New America Foundation

    As you can clearly see, and there are more citations I can produce, most historians agree that it was FDR that set-off, with the New Deal, the modern Middle Class. The high taxes and such referred to by your source, refers to high-end items that in those days were limited to the richer folks, so it is misleading.
    I can produce more as well it means little at this point.

    I think you are the one being misleading here. As was stated before historians are split right down the middle. And yet you say "most historians agree that it was FDR that set-off." Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    As to the government contributing to the problem of this current recession, I agree they played a part, but not the major part. Banks were knowingly selling bad loans into the market in order to protect themselves from their own practice.
    Lets look at this logically...

    Government says: Loan to poor people and bad credit risks!
    Banks: Bad Idea
    Government: American dream! Housing! Blah Blah
    Banks: OK
    President Bush and Republicans: We need oversite. (6 years before the crash)
    Democrats: Nahhhhh.
    Banks: lets sell these high risk loans to protecht ourselfs.
    Madoff types: Lets package the high risk mortages and sell to the banks!

    Make no mistake the banks were forced (if indirectly) by the US government to give out the loans.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Then, once the market stopped purchasing these loans, were stuck with their own creation. The government certainly encouraged some lending to questionable borrowers, but not at the risk level banks took things to.
    When Congress passed the AMT PA in 82' which allowed non-federally chartered housing creditors to write adjustable-rate mortgages this opened the flood gates to the banking problems. Around 80% of your sub prime mortgages were adjustable rate and with no oversite a recipe for disaster courtesy of the US government.

    It gets worse when GSEs like Fannie Mae, got involved again due to government involvement.

    It goes on but I think you get the just of what I am saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #30
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    Re: A Simple And Straightforward Question For You.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I can produce more as well it means little at this point.

    I think you are the one being misleading here. As was stated before historians are split right down the middle. And yet you say "most historians agree that it was FDR that set-off." Most?
    Most historians, not economists. Economists are split, with that I agree. I have yet to find a historian, though I am sure there are some, that do not attribute start of the rise of the modern Middle Class to FDR and his policies.


    Lets look at this logically...

    Government says: Loan to poor people and bad credit risks!
    Banks: Bad Idea
    Government: American dream! Housing! Blah Blah
    Banks: OK
    President Bush and Republicans: We need oversite. (6 years before the crash)
    Democrats: Nahhhhh.
    Banks: lets sell these high risk loans to protecht ourselfs.
    Madoff types: Lets package the high risk mortages and sell to the banks!

    Make no mistake the banks were forced (if indirectly) by the US government to give out the loans.



    When Congress passed the AMT PA in 82' which allowed non-federally chartered housing creditors to write adjustable-rate mortgages this opened the flood gates to the banking problems. Around 80% of your sub prime mortgages were adjustable rate and with no oversite a recipe for disaster courtesy of the US government.

    It gets worse when GSEs like Fannie Mae, got involved again due to government involvement.

    It goes on but I think you get the just of what I am saying.
    I agree the government was a big factor, I just do not think they were the major factor, unless if it is in their lack of oversight. If we are blaming them for not conducting proper oversight, then I will agree with you.

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