View Poll Results: Is health care a right?

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  • Yes

    30 36.59%
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    52 63.41%
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Thread: Is health care in the US a right?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Answering my questions would be nice...

    How are free clinics "increasing the burden on the shrinking middle class?"

    Do you think handing healthcare over to the government will stop...

    "Until there is REAL reform that ends the doubling of medical costs every decade, then we are in store for the end of the Middle Class. As costs continue to rise, as wages stay stagnant, more and more will slip into the category of uninsured, this will increase the burden on those remaining until the whole thing collapses." - tlmorg02
    I have already answered these questions, but let me try again. The free clinics and the lot are paid for, by guess who, TAX PAYERS!!!!! As jobs are lost to both hard economic times, and increasingly outsourcing, the number of people partaking of these services will increase. This leads to a higher tax burden on those still working. By the way, the insurance companies you protect outsource at a rapid rate to India, also contributing.

    Now, as anyone with the internet can readily find, worker wages have been virtually stagnant since the 1960's and only increasing slightly with inflation. As people have to continuously pay the bill of the free clinics and the lot, while paying for the extreme cost of high private insurance, which continues to rise constantly (doubling every ten years), they have less free capital. As more and more slide into the ranks of the free clinic people, those remaining will suffer further until it all collapses. Because I can guarantee you, insurance companies will never reduce premiums.

    A government backed option will end the monopoly that Wellpoint and Humana have on the American people and create the environment necessary for the private insurers to streamline and make cuts necessary to competiting, much like UPS and Fed-Ex have to outcompete the postal service. More people, even the poor will be able to afford one of these plans and the ranks on the free clinic line will be reduced. Not to mention jobs created as the government backed insurance will have to keep customer service and claims processing right here in the good ol' USA. Do you now understand?

  2. #32
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It's funny I have been watching the votes. Every time a person on the forum votes no, mysteriously the yes gets another invisible vote.

    Liberal honesty at work.
    I am a wide open Yes voter!

  3. #33
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I hope you felt the same way when the right-winged stacked court approved imminent domain and the socialist practice of taking people's lands so that corporations could build on them for the sake of profits.
    I am against imminent domain for private usage(that also includes universities as well). It is an abuse of what it was intended for. If a corporation or company really wants that piece of property then he should pay the owner what the owner wants,not the forced cheapest price possible.Supply and demand is a two street not a one way street.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #34
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You are confusing socialist and capitalist.

    Their is nothing socialist about the government stealing property for a private corporation to make money, nothing at all. It is capitalism, and yes it stinks sometimes.
    Oh! SO if the government steals for the wealthy, you are ok with that and that is capitalism. But if it takes from the wealthy it is socialism. Gotcha!

  5. #35
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The Constitution does not grant or define your rights. That is a common misconception. The Constitution primarily restricts the powers of government. Your rights are based in the principle of self ownership. Only totalitarian nations have constitutions that grant and define (thus limit) rights.

    Now obviously though self ownership gives you the right to say what you want, be who you want, do with your body what you want, enjoy the fruits of your own labor and so on, one can't argue that self ownership entitles them to health care. So health care if it is a right is not a right that stems from self ownership.

    So if health care is a right, it is a right based in the moral notion of Human Rights or Humanitarian Law. Humanitarian law is much different than self ownership in that humanitarian law can actually compel action by an individual. For example, if you witness an accident you are compelled by humanitarian law to assist a victim that needs your assistance. Let's say a child is seriously injured and comes to your door asking for help. If you do nothing and allow them to simply bleed to death on your lawn without doing anything or contacting emergency services, you can be prosecuted simply because you did nothing. In such a case, that child would have a right to assistance by you even though that right obviously is not derived from self ownership. Its a human right, based in humanitarian law rather than self ownership and just like many other rights we enjoy, its found no where in the constitution because as I pointed out, the constitution does not grant rights, it primarily restricts the powers of government.

    So the real question is whether or not health care is a human right. Emergency care is almost universally held to be a human right. A hospital cannot deny you treatment for life saving care because life saving care is considered to be a human right even if you cannot afford it.

    Now some have pointed out that a need is not necessarily a right and used housing and food as an example. The problem with that argument is that its not as black and white as they would like it to be. For example, if we had tens of millions of Americans that could not afford housing or food, we would probably be reevaluating as a society how we provide housing and food. The reason for this is that there it is implicit in the social contract that underlies all free societies that basic human needs have to be accessible to the majority of the individuals in that society. The individual does not have the right to be given free food in a society where the vast majority of people can afford food for themselves. However, if the availability and cost of food were such that a significant percentage of people could not afford it, then the general welfare of the people kicks in and the society due to human rights is compelled to find some sort of a solution whether its public or private.

    So the point in all of this is that whether or not health care is a right is not simple enough to be summed up in a bumper sticker slogan.
    And what does this have to do with my statement? It is not a bumper sticker slogan, and it is not part of the general welfare as the majority is just fine. We have free medical care as I pointed out.

    All legalize does is gum up the works and make simple issues complicated.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am against imminent domain for private usage(that also includes universities as well). It is an abuse of what it was intended for. If a corporation or company really wants that piece of property then he should pay the owner what the owner wants,not the forced cheapest price possible.Supply and demand is a two street not a one way street.
    Thanks for being a person who actually sticks to their principles regardless of the wealth of those in question. Many here who argue for the side of conservatism only extend their claims to those who do not make millions per year.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It's funny I have been watching the votes. Every time a person on the forum votes no, mysteriously the yes gets another invisible vote.

    Liberal honesty at work.
    I am sure that if you didn't make the votes public then we would be seeing 20-60 votes for yes.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #38
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Thanks for being a person who actually sticks to their principles regardless of the wealth of those in question. Many here who argue for the side of conservatism only extend their claims to those who do not make millions per year.
    I do not think Blackdog ever said he was for it.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #39
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And what does this have to do with my statement? It is not a bumper sticker slogan, and it is not part of the general welfare as the majority is just fine. We have free medical care as I pointed out.

    All legalize does is gum up the works and make simple issues complicated.
    The majority is not just fine. We have tens of millions of Americans that are uninsured, at least 25 million Americans that are under-insured, health insurance premiums increasing at 4 times the rate of inflation, and health care expenses being the number one reason for bankruptcy in this country.

    The question was "Is health care a right?". Obviously health care is a human right based in humanitarian law otherwise you could be denied life saving care. If health care was not a human right, you could bleed to death in front of a hospital if you were uninsured. Its a human right whether people want to admit it or not.

    That is not to say that just because health care is a human right means that the federal government should step in an provide it for everyone though. That is a different question altogether.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-19-09 at 12:10 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #40
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Oh! SO if the government steals for the wealthy, you are ok with that and that is capitalism. But if it takes from the wealthy it is socialism. Gotcha!
    You can read correct? I said...

    "You are confusing socialist and capitalist.

    Their is nothing socialist about the government stealing property for a private corporation to make money, nothing at all. It is capitalism, and yes it stinks sometimes.
    " - blackdog

    Now please point out where I said or even implied any of the stupidity you just defecated above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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