View Poll Results: Is health care a right?

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  • Yes

    30 36.59%
  • No

    52 63.41%
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Thread: Is health care in the US a right?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I hope you felt the same way when the right-winged stacked court approved imminent domain and the socialist practice of taking people's lands so that corporations could build on them for the sake of profits.
    You are confusing socialist and capitalist.

    Their is nothing socialist about the government stealing property for a private corporation to make money, nothing at all. It is capitalism, and yes it stinks sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    No one can be refused EMERGENCY attention. However, one can be refused heart transplants, cancer treatment....because they do not have insurance.
    No one has a right to a heart transplant or cancer treatment. Then again as I stated earlier...

    Free Medical Clinics, Free Dental Clinics, Free Medical Help All over USA
    Walgreens Clinics Offer Free Medical Care for Unemployed, Uninsured Workers - On Health and Money (usnews.com)
    Free clinics fill medical void - USATODAY.com

    If they want it here they can get it.

    What I can't figure out is why people seem to think this kind of service does not exist here???

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    And I assume your roll of the eyes means you have no response to that, yes?
    It is literally so stupid it is not worth responding to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No one has a right to a heart transplant or cancer treatment. Then again as I stated earlier...

    Free Medical Clinics, Free Dental Clinics, Free Medical Help All over USA
    Walgreens Clinics Offer Free Medical Care for Unemployed, Uninsured Workers - On Health and Money (usnews.com)
    Free clinics fill medical void - USATODAY.com

    If they want it here they can get it.

    What I can't figure out is why people seem to think this kind of service does not exist here???



    It is literally so stupid it is not worth responding to.

    I understand that there are some free medical services, but these services do nothing more than increase the burden on the ever shrinking Middle Class. Until there is REAL reform that ends the doubling of medical costs every decade, then we are in store for the end of the Middle Class. As costs continue to rise, as wages stay stagnant, more and more will slip into the category of uninsured, this will increase the burden on those remaining until the whole thing collapses. People argue that the market will fix itself, but this has proven untrue for the past thirty years, as the number of mergers between insurance providers has narrowed the field down to a monopoly. These monopolies are responsible to whom? Investors, as insurance is a business, not a service. So in order to keep investors happy, insurance companies have to increase profit margins by paying as little as possible to doctors and hospitals, and by giving the least amount as coverage possible for the greatest amount. Nothing about this is the illustration of the market working.

  4. #24
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I understand that there are some free medical services, but these services do nothing more than increase the burden on the ever shrinking Middle Class.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Until there is REAL reform that ends the doubling of medical costs every decade, then we are in store for the end of the Middle Class. As costs continue to rise, as wages stay stagnant, more and more will slip into the category of uninsured, this will increase the burden on those remaining until the whole thing collapses.
    And you think handing it over to the government will stop this? The most bloated corrupt can't balance a budget org to ever exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    People argue that the market will fix itself, but this has proven untrue for the past thirty years, as the number of mergers between insurance providers has narrowed the field down to a monopoly. These monopolies are responsible to whom? Investors, as insurance is a business, not a service. So in order to keep investors happy, insurance companies have to increase profit margins by paying as little as possible to doctors and hospitals, and by giving the least amount as coverage possible for the greatest amount. Nothing about this is the illustration of the market working.
    We need reform to make medical costs reasonable. We don't need Obama care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    For those who believe health care is a 'right' I'll pose the following question...

    Do I have a 'right' to any health care I elect? Or is my 'right' to health care limited to the care that the government deems fit? For instance, is a heart transplant a 'right?' Is liposuction a 'right?' Is a prescription for Viagra a 'right?' Or is my 'right' limited to a visit with my local doctor to discuss these options?

    And furthermore, how often am I allowed to exercise my 'right' to health care? Do I have a 'right' to visit my doctor daily? Weekly? Or is my 'right' to see the doctor limited to a government schedule of some sort?

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 08-19-09 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    How so?



    And you think handing it over to the government will stop this? The most bloated corrupt can't balance a budget org to ever exist?



    We need reform to make medical costs reasonable. We don't need Obama care.
    What would you suggest?

  7. #27
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    For those who believe health care is a 'right' I'll pose the following question...

    Do I have a 'right' to any health care I elect? Or is my 'right' to health care limited to the care that the government deems fit? For instance, is a heart transplant a 'right?' Is liposuction a 'right?' Is a prescription for Viagra a 'right?' Or is my 'right' limited to a visit with my local doctor to discuss these options?

    Here's what you are missing, people will pay a premium even for the public option, thus they are paying in money regardless. Some will not pay, but those folks are not paying now and are using the ER to gain access to healthcare, and tax payers cover that NOW. The government WILL NOT DETERMINE your healthcare, doctors will. That is in all three bills. Finally, you submit to a system now where the insurance company determines what proceedures you may and may not have! Sorry to burst your bubble.

  8. #28
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    What would you suggest?
    Answering my questions would be nice...

    How are free clinics "increasing the burden on the shrinking middle class?"

    Do you think handing healthcare over to the government will stop...

    "Until there is REAL reform that ends the doubling of medical costs every decade, then we are in store for the end of the Middle Class. As costs continue to rise, as wages stay stagnant, more and more will slip into the category of uninsured, this will increase the burden on those remaining until the whole thing collapses." - tlmorg02
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    It's funny I have been watching the votes. Every time a person on the forum votes no, mysteriously the yes gets another invisible vote.

    Liberal honesty at work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is health care in the US a right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post

    I don't think it is a defined by the Constitution in any way.
    The Constitution does not grant or define your rights. That is a common misconception. The Constitution primarily restricts the powers of government. Your rights are based in the principle of self ownership. Only totalitarian nations have constitutions that grant and define (thus limit) rights.

    Now obviously though self ownership gives you the right to say what you want, be who you want, do with your body what you want, enjoy the fruits of your own labor and so on, one can't argue that self ownership entitles them to health care. So health care if it is a right is not a right that stems from self ownership.

    So if health care is a right, it is a right based in the moral notion of Human Rights or Humanitarian Law. Humanitarian law is much different than self ownership in that humanitarian law can actually compel action by an individual. For example, if you witness an accident you are compelled by humanitarian law to assist a victim that needs your assistance. Let's say a child is seriously injured and comes to your door asking for help. If you do nothing and allow them to simply bleed to death on your lawn without doing anything or contacting emergency services, you can be prosecuted simply because you did nothing. In such a case, that child would have a right to assistance by you even though that right obviously is not derived from self ownership. Its a human right, based in humanitarian law rather than self ownership and just like many other rights we enjoy, its found no where in the constitution because as I pointed out, the constitution does not grant rights, it primarily restricts the powers of government.

    So the real question is whether or not health care is a human right. Emergency care is almost universally held to be a human right. A hospital cannot deny you treatment for life saving care because life saving care is considered to be a human right even if you cannot afford it.

    Now some have pointed out that a need is not necessarily a right and used housing and food as an example. The problem with that argument is that its not as black and white as they would like it to be. For example, if we had tens of millions of Americans that could not afford housing or food, we would probably be reevaluating as a society how we provide housing and food. The reason for this is that it is implicit in the social contract that underlies all free societies that basic human needs have to be accessible to the majority of the individuals in that society. The individual does not have the right to be given free food in a society where the vast majority of people can afford food for themselves. However, if the availability and cost of food were such that a significant percentage of people could not afford it, then the general welfare of the people kicks in and the society due to human rights is compelled to find some sort of a solution whether its public or private.

    So the point in all of this is that whether or not health care is a right is not simple enough to be summed up in a bumper sticker slogan.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-19-09 at 11:58 AM.
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