View Poll Results: Are we really born with inalienable rights?

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Thread: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

  1. #81
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Note that these are in the presence of mitigating factors. If I'm simply more powerful than someone and want his house, am I justified in taking it?
    In some cultures, absolutely. You have to remember that you're looking at things from a specific cultural position, there are cultures throughout history where "might makes right" has been the accepted position. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of making cultural claims outside of the cultural context. What's true for you may very well not be true for someone else outside of your culture.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    In some cultures, absolutely. You have to remember that you're looking at things from a specific cultural position, there are cultures throughout history where "might makes right" has been the accepted position. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of making cultural claims outside of the cultural context. What's true for you may very well not be true for someone else outside of your culture.
    This is independent of culture. If it's fine, then prove it.

    There are such things as universal truths, you know.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #83
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    A right is an ability to do something. It is not the desire, it's the ability to act on a desire.

    A right is simply that which a person has the natural ability to do. Society doesn't create rights, it creates consequences for those who exercise their rights.

    I'm not confusing "rights" with "wants" because the right exists in the absence of desire to exercise the right. The right is the ability to do something if one chooses to, but they don't need to do it. Even if a person has no desire to engage in a behavior, it is still their right to do so.

    Society did not create the rights at all. They exist in the absence of society. If they can exist in the absence of society, then they are not a social construct.

    The social construct is the invented consequences for engaging in rights. These are man-made.

    The thing that society determines is which extant rights warrant "free-exercise", that is, which rights can be exercised without societal consequence.

    What you are doing is confusing the creation of consequences by society as a denial of rights, but even with the threat of consequence, the right still exists. A person in our society still has the right to engage in illegal behavior, they just may receive consequences for doing so.

    A right is something that a person can do by virtue of existence.

    Some variants of rights are social constructs. An example of this would be the "right" to a fair trial. This "right" is granted by society because it cannot exist in the absence of society. It is in fact a privilege.

    But the right to engage in self-preservation behavior, on the other hand, is a natural right. It exists in the absence of society. A person has the right to try and preserve their life in the absence of society.
    I disagree. A right is what a person is entitled to. A right is a societal or man made concept. Nobody has the "right" to do anything in the State of Nature. You live or you die based on your abilities there.

    Women in Iran don't have as many "rights" as they do in the USA... why? It is a societal concept, that is why. Women there certainly have the "ability" to not wear veils, but they don't have the "right" to not wear one, if they had that right, they would not be persecuted when they didn't wear one, for example.

    People have the right to live, to remain free and to own property. People do not have the right to take any of those away, in the USA. They can and do, but, as you said, there is a consequence. That does not mean that they have the "right" to take them away, they are simply acting in accordance with the State of Nature. They are not evolved enough to comply with the Social Contract. They react against the concept of rights of man.

    If there is no society, then there is no law. If you build a house in ancient Siberia and a group comes along and kills you and takes your house, that is that. You had the right to build it, but not the "right", or the backing, to maintain and preserve it against those that might take it. Without government, or societal back-up, there are no "rights".

    That is my take on it...
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  4. #84
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I disagree. A right is what a person is entitled to. A right is a societal or man made concept. Nobody has the "right" to do anything in the State of Nature. You live or you die based on your abilities there.

    Women in Iran don't have as many "rights" as they do in the USA... why? It is a societal concept, that is why. Women there certainly have the "ability" to not wear veils, but they don't have the "right" to not wear one, if they had that right, they would not be persecuted when they didn't wear one, for example.

    People have the right to live, to remain free and to own property. People do not have the right to take any of those away, in the USA. They can and do, but, as you said, there is a consequence. That does not mean that they have the "right" to take them away, they are simply acting in accordance with the State of Nature. They are not evolved enough to comply with the Social Contract. They react against the concept of rights of man.

    If there is no society, then there is no law. If you build a house in ancient Siberia and a group comes along and kills you and takes your house, that is that. You had the right to build it, but not the "right", or the backing, to maintain and preserve it against those that might take it. Without government, or societal back-up, there are no "rights".

    That is my take on it...
    Here's my sticking point. In the absence of society, does a man have the right to speak freely?

    If so, it simply cannot be a social construct.

    Even if consequences are rendered for engaging in the right, it does not negate the existence of said right. Primarily because the ability to exercise the right will still exist. It will just have consequences.

    I would say that the "entitlement" aspect is what rights can be freely exercised. Certain rights are deemed by a specific society to be ones where people are entitled to freely exercise those rights.

  5. #85
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Here's my sticking point. In the absence of society, does a man have the right to speak freely?

    If so, it simply cannot be a social construct.

    Even if consequences are rendered for engaging in the right, it does not negate the existence of said right. Primarily because the ability to exercise the right will still exist. It will just have consequences.

    I would say that the "entitlement" aspect is what rights can be freely exercised. Certain rights are deemed by a specific society to be ones where people are entitled to freely exercise those rights.
    I understand your point. I would say that the man does not have the right to speak freely, but rather the ability to speak freely.

    The confusing aspect is that there are rights and then there are "rights". Rights can be associated with rights and wrongs, more or less... but "rights", what we are discussing, to the best of my understanding, are social constructs. We all have the right to do anything within our ability, but we do not have the "right" to engage in hate speech. We can, and many do, but the infringe on others "rights" and they face consequences.
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  6. #86
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This is independent of culture. If it's fine, then prove it.

    There are such things as universal truths, you know.
    Says who? How do you know?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #87
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Here's my sticking point. In the absence of society, does a man have the right to speak freely?
    In the absence of society, there's no one to stop a man from speaking freely, "rights" don't enter into it. In the absence of society, there's nobody to stop one person from killing another either. So much for the "right to life".
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    In the absence of society, there's nobody to stop one person from killing another either.
    Even in society there is no way to really stop somebody from killing another. Everyone has the right to kill right now, today, in this society. Everyone.

    It will just have consequences if one engages in this right.

  9. #89
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Even in society there is no way to really stop somebody from killing another. Everyone has the right to kill right now, today, in this society. Everyone.

    It will just have consequences if one engages in this right.
    Everyone CAN kill somebody... they don't have the "right" to do it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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  10. #90
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    While his language is....colorful George Carlin said it best I think when it came to peoples "rights". Before ou play this video...Beware! Foul language is in it! Do not let your kids watch it if you care about language!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E"]YouTube - YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS - George Carlin[/ame]
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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