View Poll Results: Are we really born with inalienable rights?

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  • Yes

    35 59.32%
  • No

    21 35.59%
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    3 5.08%
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Thread: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

  1. #71
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Just as easily we kill and commit acts of war in defense of our inalienable rights.

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    very well thought out and explained argument, but i disagree. The "basis" that you demand for governmental imposed rules, laws, and/or rights is the society itself. As we all well know, different societies have different ideas of "rights". They have different laws, different rules, different freedoms. If "rights" were indeed inalienable to mankind, there would not be such diversity in what those supposed inalienable rights are.

    You ask at the beginning:

    a person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

    this is indeed true. In the grand scheme of things, i have absolutely no right to walk upon this earth. I earn that right by destroying those who would deny it to me, or by being born in a society that has determined that i have that right and as such protects it for me at my behest.
    destroy mothers!!!!!
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    This is a very interesting debate.

    I voted "yes" before reading the thread, and now I am not so sure it was the correct choice.

    Both sides of the arguement have made points which make sense, at least partially.

    Personally, I don't know if one, neither, or both are correct (Not really sure how both could be correct, but it is likely possible.).

    That said, I still lean towards the "there are inalienable rights" side of the issue.

    This is, perhaps, in part because I want there to be such, so that humans naturally gravitate towards that state unless not sane.


    It appears to me that the basic question here is something along the lines of: "Which came first, humans or rights...Or did they arrive at the same time?"

    Can't really answer that question.
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The term "inalienable" rights only came about on the founding of the constitution. How about before then? Was our rights inalienable? Why are humans subject to "inalienable rights", yet other animals are not, and who says we should have such rights, what makes us deserving of such rights, is the term inalienable rights simply a factor of social construct aimed at providing the Human a false term of importance, or a system of civilization?

    Are we really born with Inalienable rights? Or is it merely a figment of the social structure we have developed as humans?
    Rights do not exist in the State of Nature... Rights are a man made concept...
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Because you say so, of course. I can certainly make a case for specific instances of stealing to feed your family and killing in self defense. So much for "life and property".
    Note that these are in the presence of mitigating factors. If I'm simply more powerful than someone and want his house, am I justified in taking it?

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They are not only entitled to that pursuit, they have it naturally. Only intervention by society itself can prevent that pursuit.
    No they don't. Humans have the desire for those things. They are not rights. The degree that these things occur in a society are constructed by that society. You are confusing wants and rights.
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Note that these are in the presence of mitigating factors. If I'm simply more powerful than someone and want his house, am I justified in taking it?
    Whether or not you are justified or not is established by the society you live in...hence the rights of that society. You may want your house, but the constructs dictated by that society determine whether you have a right to it or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    I believe that there is a major confusion in the definition of the term, "rights". Would someone who believes in inalienable rights please define it.

    What is a right?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I believe that there is a major confusion in the definition of the term, "rights". Would someone who believes in inalienable rights please define it.

    What is a right?
    It's mostly academic since the Constitution only defines the powers of the federal government. It does not bestow rights. Nevertheless the debate is not really about the definition of rights, but about the types of rights they are.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I believe that there is a major confusion in the definition of the term, "rights". Would someone who believes in inalienable rights please define it.

    What is a right?
    A right is an ability to do something. It is not the desire, it's the ability to act on a desire.

    A right is simply that which a person has the natural ability to do. Society doesn't create rights, it creates consequences for those who exercise their rights.

    I'm not confusing "rights" with "wants" because the right exists in the absence of desire to exercise the right. The right is the ability to do something if one chooses to, but they don't need to do it. Even if a person has no desire to engage in a behavior, it is still their right to do so.

    Society did not create the rights at all. They exist in the absence of society. If they can exist in the absence of society, then they are not a social construct.

    The social construct is the invented consequences for engaging in rights. These are man-made.

    The thing that society determines is which extant rights warrant "free-exercise", that is, which rights can be exercised without societal consequence.

    What you are doing is confusing the creation of consequences by society as a denial of rights, but even with the threat of consequence, the right still exists. A person in our society still has the right to engage in illegal behavior, they just may receive consequences for doing so.

    A right is something that a person can do by virtue of existence.

    Some variants of rights are social constructs. An example of this would be the "right" to a fair trial. This "right" is granted by society because it cannot exist in the absence of society. It is in fact a privilege.

    But the right to engage in self-preservation behavior, on the other hand, is a natural right. It exists in the absence of society. A person has the right to try and preserve their life in the absence of society.

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