View Poll Results: Are we really born with inalienable rights?

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Thread: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

  1. #41
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is an instinct, sure. I also recognize it as a self-evident right, because any society that fails to recognize it as such is doomed to fail itself. You can't have a "society" that doesn't believe its individual members have a right to life that cannot be taken from them without just cause. It would quickly become the worst sort of anarchy.

    That doesn't mean every instinct is a right, though. I have the instinct to want to kill people who make me angry... I suppress it for a variety of reasons, not least of which is a belief in the right to life.
    I bolded the part that illustrates that it is a social construct. Alienating one's right to life due to just cause is not universal.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I bolded the part that illustrates that it is a social construct. Alienating one's right to life due to just cause is not universal.
    I would correct that by saying "what constitutes just cause is not universal but rather specific to a given society...but the right to life itself, absent whatever is considered just cause by that society, is universal."


    That is, the right to life is universal...what constitutes just-cause for violating that right is specific to a given society.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-16-09 at 10:08 PM.

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  3. #43
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I would correct that by saying "what constitutes just cause is not universal but rather specific to a given society...but the right to life itself, absent whatever is considered just cause by that society, is universal."


    That is, the right to life is universal...what constitutes just-cause for violating that right is specific to a given society.
    If that right was inalienable, society couldn't arbitrarily revoke it.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    If that right was inalienable, society couldn't arbitrarily revoke it.

    You're confusing inalienable with something like invincible, I think. Bullets don't bounce off my chest, but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to life.

    If rights were invincible, there would be no need to safeguard them in society or even talk about them. They wouldn't be rights, they'd be laws of nature like gravity.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-16-09 at 10:21 PM.

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  5. #45
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    They wouldn't be rights, they'd be laws of nature like gravity.
    Do you mean like the self-preservation instinct?
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  6. #46
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    In theory, I would say that all humans could have inalienable rights so long as those who have the power to uphold those rights were to extend them to everybody. To me, there is no more noble cause we can embark upon, than to promote and expand the idea of inalienable rights in every society and in every corner of the globe. However, the economics of that ideal are currently unfeasible.

    The beauty of the Constitution, is that mans inalienable rights are not granted by the government, but from without the government. This sets into motion the idea that those rights belong to all men, regardless of government because they aren't granted by a government. However, as in another discussion thread, what rights and prvileges you desire, you must be willing to enforce at gunpoint. It is folly to think that the existence of inalienable rights protects anybody from having that right infringed upon. It requires endless protection by those with the power to do so.

    The reason lesser animals than ourselves have no inalienable rights(and should not) is because they lack the power to grant themselves such a thing. Should they ever gain inalienable rights, it will be through the grace of those who have power over them(us). The reason we enjoy our rights, particularly in the West, is because we have the power as individuals and states, to fight for and protect those inalienable rights.

    So, do we really have them? Yes, we do. We have them, because we have the power to hold them and we have the power to extend them. Can we lose them? Absolutely. When we no longer have the power to hold onto those rights, we will lose them to those that have the power to take them away.
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is an instinct, sure. I also recognize it as a self-evident right, because any society that fails to recognize it as such is doomed to fail itself. You can't have a "society" that doesn't believe its individual members have a right to life that cannot be taken from them without just cause. It would quickly become the worst sort of anarchy.

    That doesn't mean every instinct is a right, though. I have the instinct to want to kill people who make me angry... I suppress it for a variety of reasons, not least of which is a belief in the right to life.
    All animals have a self preservation instinct. And, social animals protect each other as well. Do they, too, have an inalienable right to life? We are all animals and the desire for self preservation is no different for us than it is for most other animals. The desire to protect our young, or even those in our herd, colony, etc (social groups) is no different. If that's all that constitutes "inalienable rights" then all animals must have inalienable rights to life.

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    It's obvious that "rights" are just human inventions and vary from time to time and place to place. There isn't a single "right" that anyone can assert that you couldn't find a time or place where said right didn't exist. The idea that "rights" are this ethereal thing that just floats around out there with no human intervention is absurd. You have whatever rights happen to be granted to you by the nation and by the society in which you live. If you go elsewhere, all bets are off.
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The term "inalienable" rights only came about on the founding of the constitution. How about before then? Was our rights inalienable? Why are humans subject to "inalienable rights", yet other animals are not, and who says we should have such rights, what makes us deserving of such rights, is the term inalienable rights simply a factor of social construct aimed at providing the Human a false term of importance, or a system of civilization?

    Are we really born with Inalienable rights? Or is it merely a figment of the social structure we have developed as humans?
    We are born with inalienable rights, it's true. It's something inherent to humans. You can list whatever source you want, God or Nature or whatever floats your boat. But no other animal is capable of the insight and intellect of the human race. None can do what we've done in the short period we've been on this planet. Because of our intellect and our empathy we are able to recognize rights as a natural existence, innate to ourselves.
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Rights are nothing more than a cultural belief, a system of moral values that supposedly helps structure the operation of our government. Rights, like laws, are only as effective as the naked force by which they are enforced-- and thus, like laws, mainly serve to benefit the people capable of wielding that force.

    Personally, I find rights-based systems of moral and political reasoning to be repulsive; they promote neglect for the most basic obligations between individuals and members of groups, whether they be families, tribes, or states. The only proper basis for moral reasoning, whether on an individual or a societal level, is the set of duties and moral obligations that are owed between individuals and groups.

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