View Poll Results: Are we really born with inalienable rights?

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  • Yes

    35 59.32%
  • No

    21 35.59%
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Thread: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

  1. #31
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Well, you are using "force" to legitimize the power to bestow or take away rights - making "force" the basis of rights. I claim that those "rights"
    are inalienable regardless of what force seeks to deprive men of them.

    Even if a man is deprived or ignorant of such rights doesn't mean that man isn't entitled to such rights.
    Rights are an entitlement?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Rights are an entitlement?
    People are entitled to some rights,... by the hand of GOD.

  3. #33
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    People are entitled to some rights,... by the hand of GOD.
    Yeah, well played
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  4. #34
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Would you even know you had those rights if someone never told you? No. Because they don't exist.

    Ah...I'd like to contest this.

    If no one ever told me I had a right to life, yet I would still desire to live. Desiring to live, I would resent and resist any effort to deprive me of that life. In essence, I would be asserting that I had a right to live when I resisted someone trying to take that from me. This is instinctive in virtually every living creature, and therefore self-evident.

    If no one ever told me I had a right to liberty, I would still want to do as I willed, not as others willed for me. I would resent capricious constraints on my liberty, and if possible I would resist them. It is the nature of Man to wish to do as he will, unless his independent spirit has been beaten down into cowering slavishness. That this is natural to human beings is self-evident, imo.

    If no one ever told me I had a right to the pursuit of happiness, I would still pursue it, as unhappiness is an unpleasant state of being. Do I need to even go over this one?

    Property, the other thing our Founders considered including in that short list, is possibly arguable. The Bantu, if I recall correctly, have little concept of personal property other than one's clothing and one's bow. Of course, they also have almost nothing else BUT those things, so it isn't much of a sacrifice for them. Still when I look at little children arguing "that's MY doll and you can't have it!" I tend to think possession is inborn.

    All other rights derive from these.

    Now...to pull up some Heinlein from the novel Starship Troopers, one could argue that a man has no natural rights whatsoever. If I am drowning the sea will not respect my right to life... my liberty can be imposed on in several ways...property too... pursuit of happiness is something that cannot be taken from me but it can be made very difficult. Nonetheless without these three or four things you cannot build a civilization for humans that is remotely just or reasonable, so to consider them "inalienable" is a good basis for building a civilization.

    If you wish to believe them a made-up construct, go ahead...but please don't teach this belief to others. The more people who believe these fundamental rights are not inalienable, the more likely that someone will try to take them from us.

    Some traditions are best left alone... when you pry at the very foundations of your civilization, you are doing so at peril to us all.

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    No, the moral validity of rights is based on the consequences that they as a rule can be generally expected to produce. Inalienability is effectively based on a deontologist perspective rather than a consequentialist one.

  6. #36
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Well, you are using "force" to legitimize the power to bestow or take away rights - making "force" the basis of rights. I claim that those "rights"
    are inalienable regardless of what force seeks to deprive men of them.

    Even if a man is deprived or ignorant of such rights doesn't mean that man isn't entitled to such rights.

    I believe people SHOULD be entitled to rights, in a moral sense. But to say they ARE by God, or any other divine force, bestowed rights since birth, cannot be proven.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  7. #37
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    damn thats a good question. no humans dont. humans are stupid thats why its necessary to always lie to them. sometimes you have to lie to them to protect them from being lied. which is a little weird isn't it ?

  8. #38
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I believe people SHOULD be entitled to rights, in a moral sense. But to say they ARE by God, or any other divine force, bestowed rights since birth, cannot be proven.
    here is where I would refer you back to post #15

  9. #39
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    So self-preservation is a right, not an instinct?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  10. #40
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    So self-preservation is a right, not an instinct?

    It is an instinct, sure. I also recognize it as a self-evident right, because any society that fails to recognize it as such is doomed to fail itself. You can't have a "society" that doesn't believe its individual members have a right to life that cannot be taken from them without just cause. It would quickly become the worst sort of anarchy.

    That doesn't mean every instinct is a right, though. I have the instinct to want to kill people who make me angry... I suppress it for a variety of reasons, not least of which is a belief in the right to life.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-16-09 at 10:00 PM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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