View Poll Results: Are we really born with inalienable rights?

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Thread: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I liked Carlin's POV on this:

    YouTube - George Carlin - Rights


    God I love Carlin

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    We have the right to live, to liberty, and hapiness. However, i cannot think of a single right that cannot be taken away from us. All and any of our rights can be taken away, even our right to live, therefore i do not consider them inalienable rights, but rights we are given at birth. Inalienable rights are rights which cannot ever be taken away. Your are suggesting our right to life, property, happiness, etc, cannot be taken away and therefore call them "inalienable" unless you define "inalienable" differently to how i define it. Just because you feel we should, or deserve, or must have those such rights, does not make them impossible to be taken away, and therefore technically are not inalienable.
    The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

    Thomas Jefferson
    You cannot prove God exists, as i cannot disprove it, so i cant use it in an argument, and if you do its baseless.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Very well thought out and explained argument, but I disagree. The "basis" that you demand for governmental imposed rules, laws, and/or rights is the society itself. As we all well know, different societies have different ideas of "rights". They have different laws, different rules, different freedoms. If "rights" were indeed inalienable to mankind, there would not be such diversity in what those supposed inalienable rights are.
    You are presuming that all rights are inherently "inalienable" rights. That presumption is demonstrably false, for if all rights were inalienable, then no man would have any power to bind his fellow man--there could be no constraint, no law, and thus no society. While some rights must be inalienable, other rights must not be inalienable.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    A person has not even the right to live and walk upon the earth if there are no inalienable rights.

    This is indeed true. In the grand scheme of things, I have absolutely no right to walk upon this earth. I EARN that right by destroying those who would deny it to me, OR by being born in a society that has determined that I have that right and as such protects it for me at my behest.
    Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.

    Every creature desires to live; that is the order of things. Society is the instinctive mechanism by which mankind proposes to best satiate his desire to live. All social animals, when deprived of the community, do not thrive; Man, being a social animal, needs society to live.

    Thus, society is an expression of the desire to live, and the laws of society are predicated on assuring life to the individual man. Indeed, you will not find in any society a corpus of law that is dismissive of the individual man's desire to live.

    Moreover, if the members of a society do not take pains to preserve the lives of that society's members, that society will not sustain. Life is always a precarious proposition; if we are dismissive of each other's desires for life, if we stand idle when the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune conspire to take away life, then, in time, we will all perish, and so will our society. As Benjamin Franklin observed most sardonically, "we must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

    Thus it is that any society, if it is to endure, must take pains to preserve the lives of its members. Thus it is that, in every society, a man must have an inalienable right to life, for to argue otherwise is invariably to argue the dissolution of society.

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    You cannot prove God exists, as i cannot disprove it, so i cant use it in an argument, and if you do its baseless.
    Whether "GOD" exists or not is irrelevant when it comes to the maintenance of liberty. The concept of GOD-given, inalienable, natural rights is key to the function of our Representative Republic because "rights" that pre-date man or governments of man place certain powers (liberties) out of the hands of man. Drive "GOD" out of the mix and your rights will flow directly from the government and can be arbitrarily abridged by man. So GOD existing is physical, scientific sensed isn't important as long as the understanding that certain rights are off limits to the Government is observed.

  6. #16
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Society cannot exist without the inalienable right to life.
    I'll address the rest later, (mainly I take issue with the notion that mankind needs society to live) but for right now I just wanted to correct this statement above.

    Society cannot exist with an agreement between the individuals within the society that killing one another is a "bad thing to do". Or, that life is a right within that society.

    No inalienable 'right' need exist. Merely an agreement between individuals. As such, that right is granted by the society in order to facilitate the society, it's not inalienable.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 08-16-09 at 08:52 PM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Whether "GOD" exists or not is irrelevant when it comes to the maintenance of liberty. The concept of GOD-given, inalienable, natural rights is key to the function of our Representative Republic because "rights" that pre-date man or governments of man place certain powers (liberties) out of the hands of man. Drive "GOD" out of the mix and your rights will flow directly from the government and can be arbitrarily abridged by man. So GOD existing is physical, scientific sensed isn't important as long as the understanding that certain rights are off limits to the Government is observed.
    I believe that we are born with the right to live, liberty and happiness. But to call them inalienable is incorrect. To say such rights are inalienable, you mean to say such rights can never be taken away from us, though in essence, they can be, and it doesn't even take a head of state to do it. We may be born with the right to live, and happiness, and liberty, but if we live in a nation that forbids such things, then those rights that should be ours are no longer ours and have been taken away, though we should be subjected to them as human beings. As i have said, the concept of "inalienable" rights is purely make belief and only existence on the establishment of the constitution.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 08-16-09 at 08:55 PM.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No inalienable 'right' need exist. Merely an agreement between individuals. As such, that right is granted by the society in order to facilitate the society, it's not inalienable.
    Except you are conflating your terms. First you describe an agreement "between individuals" and transpose that as a right granted by "the society".

    The agreement "between individuals" is the society--and the first part of that agreement is to endeavor to preserve each others' lives. As society is inevitable, the agreement is inevitable, and the the right to life--being the substance of that agreement--must be inalienable to the individual.

  9. #19
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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    And i only say we are born with those rights in the sense that we are born deserving those rights, otherwise, rights are purely make belief. They only exist in the human psyche.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Do Humans really have inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I believe that we are born with the right to live, liberty and happiness. But to call them inalienable is incorrect. To say such rights are inalienable, you mean to say such rights can never be taken away from us, though in essence, they can be, and it doesn't even take a head of state to do it.
    If you can accept the concept of what inalienable rights are, why cant you understand that it is a violation anytime a force - whether it be a democratic government or a dictatorship of oligarchs deprives men of those rights?

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