Healthcare question for Christians

disneydude said:

This is a question for Christians:

WWJD?

Would Jesus support a UHC plan or would he feel that healthcare should be portioned out based on an individuals ability to pay?

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I thought Jesus in the Bible was big on helping others and charity?

Bassman said:

Forced charity, by Government edict, certainly is not Christian charity. It is oppression.

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From a theological standpoint, we are not under a dictatorial Caesar. In a Republic, a government is owned by and thus is the collective arm of the people.

This whole notion of "compartmentalized Christianity" many on the religious right promote is an absolute heresy. There are hundreds if not thousands of versus in scripture on helping the poor and the sick. Lets look at these for example:

Deuteronomy 15:11

"There are always going to be poor and needy people among you. So I command you: Always be generous, open purse and hands, give to your neighbors in trouble, your poor and hurting neighbors."

Isaiah 1:17

"Learn to do good. Work for justice. Help the down(trodden)"

Proverbs 14:21

"It's criminal to ignore a neighbor in need, but compassion for the poor--what a blessing!"

Proverbs 14:31

"You insult your Maker when you exploit the powerless; when you're kind to the poor, you honor God."

Proverbs 21:13

"If you stop your ears to the cries of the poor, your cries will go unheard, unanswered."

Proverbs 31:9

"Speak out for justice! Stand up for the poor and destitute!"

And of course the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats:

Matthew 25:31-46

"31: "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. 32: Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, 33: putting sheep to his right and goats to his left. 34: "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation. 35: And here's why: I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room, 36: I was shivering and you gave me clothes, I was sick and you stopped to visit, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: "Then those "sheep' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? 38 -39: And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' 40: Then the King will say, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me--you did it to me.' 41: "Then he will turn to the "goats,' the ones on his left, and say, "Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. 42: And why? Because-- I was hungry and you gave me no meal, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43: I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering and you gave me no clothes, Sick and in prison, and you never visited.' 44: "Then those "goats' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?' 45: "He will answer them, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me--you failed to do it to me.' 46: "Then those "goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep' to their eternal reward."

Scripture does not deal with some of your actions in some circumstances. There are no such limitations on helping the poor and the sick. Just like you cannot turn your back on them in person, you cannot turn your back on them at the voting booth either.

Now you might say that I think there is a better way we can collectively help the poor and the sick through government than the ways that are being proposed, and that's fine, but to argue that the commandments to help the poor and the sick that are found throughout scripture do not apply to you when you write your congressman or go to the voting booth is pure heresy.

angrycarpenter said:

Jesus also said on taxation "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and what is God's unto God." Once again, Money is not important when your soul is at stake. Someone also said that you can't take it with you.

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Jesus was telling them that matters of politics and religion shouldn't be mixed. That they could still be loyal to Rome, and God at this time

Laila said:

I thought Jesus in the Bible was big on helping others and charity?

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Yes... but also that people do those things voluntarily.
Else, they have no meaning.

SouthernDemocrat said:

Scripture does not deal with some of your actions in some circumstances. There are no such limitations on helping the poor and the sick. Just like you cannot turn your back on them in person, you cannot turn your back on them at the voting booth either.

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At the voting booth, presumeably to vote for UHC or for people that will bring UHC into being, you aren't voting for charitible giving, you're voting to force others to give.
Christian charity cannot be forced, it must be voluntary.

Goobieman said:

Yes... but also that people do those things voluntarily.
Else, they have no meaning.

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Helping people have no meaning. Interesting.

I thought US was majority Christian? Shouldn't they be willingly jumping to help people? Y'know, follow Jesus's example.

Laila said:

I thought Jesus in the Bible was big on helping others and charity?

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I thought that Jesus was big on people doing good themselves, and not forcing others to help people.

Laila said:

Helping people have no meaning. Interesting.

I thought US was majority Christian? Shouldn't they be willingly jumping to help people? Y'know, follow Jesus's example.

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If that's the case, then why do you think we need a government program to force us to "give"?

SouthernDemocrat said:

From a theological standpoint, we are not under a dictatorial Caesar. In a Republic, a government is owned by and thus is the collective arm of the people.

This whole notion of "compartmentalized Christianity" many on the religious right promote is an absolute heresy. There are hundreds if not thousands of versus in scripture on helping the poor and the sick. Lets look at these for example:

Deuteronomy 15:11

"There are always going to be poor and needy people among you. So I command you: Always be generous, open purse and hands, give to your neighbors in trouble, your poor and hurting neighbors."

Isaiah 1:17

"Learn to do good. Work for justice. Help the down(trodden)"

Proverbs 14:21

"It's criminal to ignore a neighbor in need, but compassion for the poor--what a blessing!"

Proverbs 14:31

"You insult your Maker when you exploit the powerless; when you're kind to the poor, you honor God."

Proverbs 21:13

"If you stop your ears to the cries of the poor, your cries will go unheard, unanswered."

Proverbs 31:9

"Speak out for justice! Stand up for the poor and destitute!"

And of course the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats:

Matthew 25:31-46

"31: "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. 32: Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, 33: putting sheep to his right and goats to his left. 34: "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation. 35: And here's why: I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room, 36: I was shivering and you gave me clothes, I was sick and you stopped to visit, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: "Then those "sheep' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? 38 -39: And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' 40: Then the King will say, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me--you did it to me.' 41: "Then he will turn to the "goats,' the ones on his left, and say, "Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. 42: And why? Because-- I was hungry and you gave me no meal, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43: I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering and you gave me no clothes, Sick and in prison, and you never visited.' 44: "Then those "goats' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?' 45: "He will answer them, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me--you failed to do it to me.' 46: "Then those "goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep' to their eternal reward."

Scripture does not deal with some of your actions in some circumstances. There are no such limitations on helping the poor and the sick. Just like you cannot turn your back on them in person, you cannot turn your back on them at the voting booth either.

Now you might say that I think there is a better way we can collectively help the poor and the sick through government than the ways that are being proposed, and that's fine, but to argue that the commandments to help the poor and the sick that are found throughout scripture do not apply to you when you write your congressman or go to the voting booth is pure heresy.

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And in not ONE of these passages does he tell someone to rob Peter to pay Paul.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

If that's the case, then why do you think we need a government program to force us to "give"?

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I asked a question, i do not frankly care if UHC comes to US or not.

Laila said:

Helping people have no meaning. Interesting.

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You didn't read or respond to the entirety of what I said.

Christian charity depends on the -voluntary- nature of the act.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

I thought that Jesus was big on people doing good themselves, and not forcing others to help people.

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Jesus seems to have forgotten about how selfish people are by default.

Goobieman said:

Christian charity depends on the -voluntary- nature of the act.

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Charity is charity to me.
I suppose Christians see it differently.

So Christianity has no obligation to help others?

disneydude said:

This is a question for Christians:

WWJD?

Would Jesus support a UHC plan or would he feel that healthcare should be portioned out based on an individuals ability to pay?

Click to expand...

First, I find this a worthless question when republicans or democrats do it.

Second, I think Jesus would mostly be uncaring about what the government plan would be in regards to what he'd tell others to do. He'd instead focus on the indvidual, and the community, encouraging people to donate their own money to help the less fortunante. Not stating UHC is bad. Not stating UHC is good. Ignoring it, because people can make their own decisions on what they want the government doing. Giving the government money to do as they see fit and "trusting" they'll use it right is not virtuous. Giving it freely is.

Third, I do not begin to try and explain how a man from thousands of years ago would immedietely view a modern government program. However he may view it, I'd imagine as it has no baring on divinity, faith, or spirituality that he would mostly keep the view to himself as there's nothing directly christian or anti-christian concerning UHC.

disneydude said:

Who's talking about putting a gun to anyone's head?

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If you refuse to pay your taxes and refuse to quietly be arrested for refusing to pay your taxes how do you think they get you into jail?

That's the whole "gun to your head" notion. People like to say giving taxes to the government and them giving it to those "who need it" is like Charity, expects it not. The thing that makes CHARITY virtuous is one CHOOSES to do it on their own. When the alternative to not doing it is being jailed and essentially ruining your life it is no longer charity, and no longer virtuous, but state sponsored coercion.

Laila said:

Charity is charity to me.

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The conversation here is the tenet of Christian charity.
So -your- definition of charity is irrelevant.

So Christianity has no obligation to help others?

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Its all based on free will - you have to make the choice to help others.

Laila said:

Jesus seems to have forgotten about how selfish people are by default.

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Or seems to realize that forcing people to do good defeats the entire purpose of altruism.

Laila said:

Jesus seems to have forgotten about how selfish people are by default.

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Thats a silly assumption on your part, and denotes a vast lack of familiarity with the issue.

The entrire reason Christian charity (et al) must be voluntary is PRECICELY because people are selfish.

Couldn't have said it better myself Zyphlin

Goobieman said:

At the voting booth, presumeably to vote for UHC or for people that will bring UHC into being, you aren't voting for charitible giving, you're voting to force others to give.
Christian charity cannot be forced, it must be voluntary.

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Once again, God does not compartmentalize. If you go to the voting booth, you should be practicing justice and compassion in what you vote for and who you vote to represent you, just like as a Christian you have to practice justice and compassion in every other aspect of your life. You cannot simply ignore the sick and the poor at the voting booth or at the town hall.

Now one might believe that there is a more effective way of helping the sick than what is being proposed, and that would be a perfectly valid position to have as a Christian. Just like you cannot ignore the poor and the sick, you cannot have people that represent you ignore the poor and the sick. We don't live under a totalitarian Caesar. We ultimately all chose are laws, our government, our society.

Goobieman said:

Its all based on free will - you have to make the choice to help others.

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Fair enough.
I think it is stupid personally but then in that context of 'charity'. Christians would have no obligation to support UHC.

Laila said:

Fair enough.
I think it is stupid personally but then in that context of 'charity'. Christians would have no obligation to support UHC.

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Why is it stupid?

DrunkenAsparagus said:

I thought that Jesus was big on people doing good themselves, and not forcing others to help people.

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Why would you feel "forced" to help others? Isn't "helping others" a natural by-product of being a Christian?

Laila said:

Helping people have no meaning. Interesting.

I thought US was majority Christian? Shouldn't they be willingly jumping to help people? Y'know, follow Jesus's example.

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If your neighbor came by and said "My car broke down and I don't have the money to fix it and won't be able to get to work without it, could you possibly give me $500, I'd really appreciate it" and you do it, that's charity. That's you being a kind person, willing to help someone out because you have money to spare.

If your neighbor came by holding a gas can and a lighter in his hand and goes "My car broke down and I don't have the money to fix it and won't be able to get to work without it. If you don't give me $500 to fix it I'm going to make sure the next time you leave home I'm going to set your house on fire". If you then give the money to him that's not charity, that's not being willing ot help someone out because you have the money to spare, that's being intimidated, threatened, extorted, and coerced to give him the money because if you don't bad things will happen to you.

You want to give $1000 to the Red Cross, I applaud you for being a good person.

You want to go out and find a down on the luck friend and agree to finance their health care plan, you're a hell of a guy, nice job.

You want to give your money to CFC and just let them pick what charity they think needs it, great.

That's Charity.

The government going "You're going to give us your money, we're goin to give it to who we think is needy of it, and if you don't we're going to throw you in jail" is not Charity.

Goobieman said:

Yes... but also that people do those things voluntarily.
Else, they have no meaning.

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The entire point, the very basis of Christianity is to act in the example of Christ. The dogma of every christian church in the world states that Jesus was sent as an example to mankind of how a person should be. These rebuttals of "free will" are missing the point I am trying to make. Jesus would not worry about money when there are poor people to help. If the want for a few more dollars stands in the way of any christian helping his fellow man then he far from perfect in his faith. Perhaps someone should quote some scripture that supports the idea that a government helping it's citizens is a bad thing.

SouthernDemocrat said:

Once again, God does not compartmentalize. If you go to the voting booth, you should be practicing justice and compassion in what you vote for and who you vote to represent you, just like as a Christian you have to practice justice and compassion in every other aspect of your life. You cannot simply ignore the sick and the poor at the voting booth or at the town hall.

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I have already addressed the error in this position.
Repeating that position does nothing.