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Thread: Healthcare question for Christians

  1. #341
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Im saying its too late to have it any other way, the current laws you live under where put in place before you were born.
    Contrary to your claim, and rather than Christian morality, (most of) our laws are based on the tenet that we all have rights and that the government is there to protect those rights.

    So, again, I expect you to accept that response when someone forces their morality on to you.

    And, again, this is ALL removed from the fact that Jesus would not and did not advocate that His followers force His teachings on to those not willing to accept them

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Love thy neighbour is an example of positive morality. Dont want to buy that?
    It's a moral imperative, but who of us is so blameless as to punish those who don't follow God's law?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #343
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Timothy 1:10
    Not unless you are going by a bad translation...

    Most recent translation from 2008...

    "for those involved in sexual immorality, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for false witnesses, and for whatever else goes against the healthy teaching"

    Kidnappers are probably slave traders but not all slave traders then were kidnappers.

    Funny how this applys don't you think?

    "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

    6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

    7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

    8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    "

    Interesting indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Government taxation is not stealing. Probably why its not mentioned in any part of the Torah or Bible as such.
    It is stealing when the money is taken by force and given to another, period.

    Stealing: To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #344
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not unless you are going by a bad translation...

    Most recent translation from 2008...

    "for those involved in sexual immorality, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for false witnesses, and for whatever else goes against the healthy teaching"

    Kidnappers are probably slave traders but not all slave traders then were kidnappers.

    Funny how this applys don't you think?
    Here are a number of versions; I tend to look to the King James version, but there are quite a few others that back up my point.


    New International Version (©1984)
    for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    for those involved in sexual immorality, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for false witnesses, and for whatever else goes against the healthy teaching

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    Laws are intended for people involved in sexual sins, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for those who lie when they take an oath, and for whatever else is against accurate teachings.

    King James Bible
    For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    American King James Version
    For fornicators, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for enslavers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    American Standard Version
    for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

    Bible in Basic English
    For those who go after loose women, for those with unnatural desires, for those who take men prisoners, who make false statements and false oaths, and those who do any other things against the right teaching,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    For fornicators, for them who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine,

    Darby Bible Translation
    fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers; and if any other thing is opposed to sound teaching,

    English Revised Version
    for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

    Webster's Bible Translation
    For lewd persons, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

    Weymouth New Testament
    fornicators, sodomites, slave-dealers, liars and false witnesses; and for whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching

    World English Bible
    for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

    Young's Literal Translation
    whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

    1 Timothy 1:10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine


    "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

    6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

    7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

    8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

    9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    "
    Youre right, its interesting stuff, and clear that Jesus was not apolitical.



    It is stealing when the money is taken by force and given to another, period.

    Stealing: To take (the property of another) without right or permission
    The right is given in law. Try getting a judge to condemn the government for stealing its tax take.

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    It's a moral imperative, but who of us is so blameless as to punish those who don't follow God's law?
    No need, to punish. However it can guide our decisions on how to run the country.

  6. #346
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    fyi Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    FWIW, the Greek word used is andrapodistes, which Strong translates thusly:
    Quote Originally Posted by The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
    a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer
    1. of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery
    2. of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them

  7. #347
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    I thought that the Bible said that sinners will stand judgement only before God. I also thought that liberals here said that they wanted seperation of church and state. For 8 years liberals complained about Bush and the Republicans trying to force family (Christian) values on us. They said that the government has no place in morality. It's a private matter. They're right, but now some of them are trying to use Biblical scripture to justify this boondoggle. Why am I not shocked?

  8. #348
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    It addresses what you said in the most direct terms. I certainly do have standing to disagree, Biblical interpretation and the definition of life are that basis and are the start points of the debate on that basis, the basis is not that Christ was an apolitical phenomenon.

    The only question is how far should it go? Helping your fellow man and proscribing murder or should it reach right into the bedroom to adultery? As it is morality, Christian morality, extends into most areas of life to some degree - that's why prostitution remains an uneasy gambit where the law in concerned.
    For a Christian the definition of life should be based on these two verses,
    Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    Mt 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
    And
    Mt 22:37 * Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Christian morality should not go any farther than the church itself. It is the Believer that has agreed to be bound to the higher standards of NT law under Christ not the world. It is a covenant agreement between God and the believer. We are supposed to be witnesses for Christ. Not enforcers for Christ.

    1pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    We are supposed to be a higher form of society existing within a lesser form of society. We are not supposed to impose burdens on others but be willing to bare burdens ourselves.

    Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
    Mt 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    Mt 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    How can any Christian think that a secular society will not fight tooth and nail against Christians trying to enforce biblical laws and conduct on them? If God does not violate their freewill to live their secular lives then what makes a believer think that the church has the authority to do so?

    We constantly teach in our churches that we are called to emulate Christ and develop the Christ like character. Part of the character of Christ is the calling of the suffering servant. Rather than emulate Christ to many of us would rather emulate Peter.

    Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear . The servant's name was Malchus.
    Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

    Apparently many of us would rather say while sharpening our blades for the next attack no thanks I am not thirsty.

    As to apolitical Christ was 100% apolitical. To use his render unto Ceaser as a statement that he supported taxes is an error. If Ceaser would have wanted a 100% tax then as far as Jesus was concerned he could have it all. He was not here to save money and garner wealth and property. He was here to spread the gospel of the kingdom.

    Even if all US Christians unite as a solid voice of one against the health bill and it is defeated you may be able to pat yourselves on the back for sparing your own wealth but you have not done one thing to further the cause of Christ.

    Moe

  9. #349
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    No need, to punish. However it can guide our decisions on how to run the country.
    If it's not punishable then it's not a law. Remember what Jesus said during the Sermon on the Mount

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus the Christ, Matthew 7:1-5
    "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
    We have no right to complain about others not giving unless we ourselves give, and nowhere there did Jesus mention forcing others to give.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #350
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Here are a number of versions; I tend to look to the King James version, but there are quite a few others that back up my point.
    And compair the dates...

    The latest translations (as in 2008) do not say slavers. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Youre right, its interesting stuff, and clear that Jesus was not apolitical.
    Yea just like the most recent translation.

    Please dude get real.

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    The right is given in law. Try getting a judge to condemn the government for stealing its tax take.
    When they take it by force to give to someone else it is. It is not charity at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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