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Thread: Healthcare question for Christians

  1. #221
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    fyi Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Thanks to the OP for an interesting thread.

    Cain asked, "Am I my brotherís keeper?" (Gen. 4:9). Was Jesus Christ His brotherís keeper? Did Jesus take care of His brothers who were in need of clothes, food or shelter? Did He come to the aid of widows in distress? Was He a father to the orphan? Did He give to the poor (John 13:29)? Yes! Jesus was His brotherís keeper.

    15. Am I my brother's keeper?

    Obviously Jesus would give to the sick, nor would he be happy with anyone not giving to the sick.
    Would he thus support taxation to this end? Even if this impeded freedom? Absolutely.
    Jesus was not an advocate of freedom to do as thou wilt, but to do as God wants for his children, the practice of love.

    Taxation by the government to give not to the sick rich who don't need it but to the sick poor who do is a perfect example of the love that Jesus preached - even if this impedes your freedom to spend that extra dollar how you wished and even if this government project never makes a dime in profit.

    You all know this. Those who dont are simply twisting Jesus's message for their own ends.

    You all know that at the end of your life when you stand before God, he will not be happy with you with holding your support on the basis that you only want to help out you and yours.

    Moreover the claims about freedom are false, since as Jesus will point out to you at the end, you didnt mind being forced to pay for guns and bombs so how how can you be so strident against being forced to pay for another man's health?
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    From a theological standpoint, we are not under a dictatorial Caesar. In a Republic, a government is owned by and thus is the collective arm of the people.

    This whole notion of "compartmentalized Christianity" many on the religious right promote is an absolute heresy. There are hundreds if not thousands of versus in scripture on helping the poor and the sick. Lets look at these for example:

    Deuteronomy 15:11

    "There are always going to be poor and needy people among you. So I command you: Always be generous, open purse and hands, give to your neighbors in trouble, your poor and hurting neighbors."

    Isaiah 1:17

    "Learn to do good. Work for justice. Help the down(trodden)"

    Proverbs 14:21

    "It's criminal to ignore a neighbor in need, but compassion for the poor--what a blessing!"

    Proverbs 14:31

    "You insult your Maker when you exploit the powerless; when you're kind to the poor, you honor God."


    Proverbs 21:13

    "If you stop your ears to the cries of the poor, your cries will go unheard, unanswered."

    Proverbs 31:9

    "Speak out for justice! Stand up for the poor and destitute!"

    And of course the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats:

    Matthew 25:31-46

    "31: "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. 32: Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, 33: putting sheep to his right and goats to his left. 34: "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what's coming to you in this kingdom. It's been ready for you since the world's foundation. 35: And here's why: I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room, 36: I was shivering and you gave me clothes, I was sick and you stopped to visit, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: "Then those "sheep' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry and feed you, thirsty and give you a drink? 38 -39: And when did we ever see you sick or in prison and come to you?' 40: Then the King will say, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you did one of these things to someone overlooked or ignored, that was me--you did it to me.' 41: "Then he will turn to the "goats,' the ones on his left, and say, "Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. 42: And why? Because-- I was hungry and you gave me no meal, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43: I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering and you gave me no clothes, Sick and in prison, and you never visited.' 44: "Then those "goats' are going to say, "Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?' 45: "He will answer them, "I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me--you failed to do it to me.' 46: "Then those "goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep' to their eternal reward."

    Scripture does not deal with some of your actions in some circumstances. There are no such limitations on helping the poor and the sick. Just like you cannot turn your back on them in person, you cannot turn your back on them at the voting booth either.

    Now you might say that I think there is a better way we can collectively help the poor and the sick through government than the ways that are being proposed, and that's fine, but to argue that the commandments to help the poor and the sick that are found throughout scripture do not apply to you when you write your congressman or go to the voting booth is pure heresy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjire View Post
    In Matthew 5:41, Jesus instructs, "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two."
    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    Does this apply to children?

    "If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you."

    Leviticus 25:35

    Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

    Luke 12:33
    Prooftext, prooftexting
    A prooftext is a verse or short passage from the Bible used by someone as part of his proof for a doctrinal belief he wishes to substantiate to others. However, since verses and passages may rely extensively on the context in which they appear for correct interpretation, pulling these out of their context and having them stand alone in a "proof" can, at times, be very misleading. In addition, a set of such prooftexts can completely ignore other passages which, if added to the mix, might well lead to an entirely different conclusion. Someone who relies strongly only on a list of prooftexts in order to make a doctrinal argument may have a very weak case for his argument. Noting that a religious teacher relies heavily just on prooftexting is viewed in theological circles as a very negative evaluation. See: Hermeneutics definition.
    Carry on ...

  2. #222
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    Does this apply to children?
    It would depend on who the child's parents are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    "If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you."

    Leviticus 25:35
    2 fallacy arguments do not a case make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

    Luke 12:33
    This is voluntary, not forced.

    3 strikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #223
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This is voluntary, not forced.

    3 strikes.
    Let's say the state you live in puts on the ballot the an initiative for a 1/8 cent sales tax that will go towards expanding the state park system, leasing more land for hunters in the fall, expanding the state's trail system, purchasing more state conservation lands, and improving the states fish stocking program for lakes and streams.

    The citizens of the state then go to the polls and vote the initiative in.

    Does that 1/8 cent sales tax for state conservation programs constitute theft or forced confiscation?
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-14-09 at 11:07 PM.
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  4. #224
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Let's say the state you live in puts on the ballot the an initiative for a 1/8 cent sales tax that will go towards expanding the state park system, leasing more land for hunters in the fall, expanding the state's trail system, purchasing more state conservation lands, and improving the states fish stocking program for lakes and streams.

    The citizens of the state then go to the polls and vote the initiative in.

    Does that 1/8 cent sales tax for state conservation programs constitute theft or forced confiscation?
    While one could argue that what was done is justified, it's still forced confiscation

  5. #225
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    While one could argue that what was done is justified, it's still forced confiscation
    You just illustrated the problem with unyielding extreme ideology - its completely anti-pragmatism. Basically, if a community paves a road, it seems by your reasoning the money used to fund the work was the result of theft.

    There is not a nation anywhere on earth that functions without some form of taxation as fees for services the nation's government provides. A society implies a social contract.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-14-09 at 11:20 PM.
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  6. #226
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You just illustrated the problem with unyielding extreme ideology - its completely anti-pragmatism. Basically, if a community paves a road, it seems by your reasoning the money used to fund the work was the result of theft.

    There is not a nation anywhere on earth that functions without some form of taxation as fees for services the nation's government provides. A society implies a social contract.
    Not necessarily.


    11/8/16: A day of great relief for America

  7. #227
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You just illustrated the problem with unyielding extreme ideology - its completely anti-pragmatism. Basically, if a community paves a road, it seems by your reasoning the money used to fund the work was the result of theft.

    There is not a nation anywhere on earth that functions without some form of taxation as fees for services the nation's government provides. A society implies a social contract.
    No, I said that you could justify taking the money, but it is forced confiscation.

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
    Not necessarily.
    So you don't have a social contract with your government? If you own a home and property, who recognizes the deed? Anyone that is born or immigrates to a nation that which one can emigrate from if they choose to, has effectively entered into a social contract with that nation's government just like if I go in and sit down at a bar and order a beer I have entered entered into an agreement that I will pay for that beer before I leave.
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    No, I said that you could justify taking the money, but it is forced confiscation.
    Its not forced confiscation. By choosing to live in that state, community, or nation, you are bound by social contract which is legitimate so long as you have the ability to move out of that state, community, or nation if you wish to do so.

    In this case, one of the stipulations of that social contract is that if a majority of the states residents votes to institute a 1/8 cent sales tax to fund state conservation programs, you are bound by that social contract to pay that tax when applicable so long as you choose to live in that state or purchase goods there. Civics 101 there.
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Its not forced confiscation. By choosing to live in that state, community, or nation, you are bound by social contract which is legitimate so long as you have the ability to move out of that state, community, or nation if you wish to do so.
    Yes it is forced. If it wasn't, then would be no need to have a tax man take it from you or vote on it, as people would do it themselves. The moving ption isn't viable for most people, and there's taxes everywhere anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    In this case, one of the stipulations of that social contract is that if a majority of the states residents votes to institute a 1/8 cent sales tax to fund state conservation programs, you are bound by that social contract to pay that tax when applicable so long as you choose to live in that state or purchase goods there. Civics 101 there.
    And I never said that people shouldn't pay taxes

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