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Thread: Healthcare question for Christians

  1. #201
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I give you credit for being one of the few who will admit that modern liberalism stems from seeking to implement Christian tenets into law.
    Exactly, modern liberalism stems from seeking to implement Christian tenets into law while modern conservatism stems from seeking to implement historical religious oppression into law.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's possible that it could be. It's possible that there's an easy refutation of it.

    However, this:



    Is not it. Ask any pro-abortion supporter carrying a sign which says "Keep your Bible out of my womb."

    I never said all of christian morality is intended to be introduced, as of course abortion poses a dilemma regarding both mothers and foetuses. There are indeed gaps in framework of liberal morality, these have only become apparent since the 50s.





    No, he would expect you to take that money you'd pay in tax and put voluntarily toward the cause (and others). Have you not been reading?
    I have been reading of course.

    Indeed he would want that, as would we all, liberals, conservatives, Libertarians, communists. There are few non-devil worshipping people on the planet that would not want everyone of us to volunteer our funds.

    But could he or anyone else be sure it would actually happen? No. Would he want us to take the risk? Obviously not, as we are on earth, not heaven.

    So why would he want that when he could instead want you to vote for a system that automatically covers everyone?

  3. #203
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Laborers in the Vineyard

    1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
    2 And when he had agreed with the laborers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
    3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the market place,
    4 and said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
    5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
    6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
    7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
    8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the laborers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
    9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
    10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
    11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
    12 saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
    13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
    14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
    That parable has nothing to do with the ownership of money. The only ownership it has to do with is your being owned by God. Instead, its basically telling you that you will have the same rewards in heaven regardless of whether you attain your salvation early in life and live a godly life or if you attain your salvation later in life after a lifetime of not doing the work of God.

    Its teaching is about the equality of all the disciples in the reward of inheriting eternal life.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-14-09 at 06:21 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #204
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Don't be disingenuous. One aspect of Liberalism is taking from Group A and giving to Group B, also called wealth redistribution: a feature of "liberalism" (really, it is socialism, might as well call it the right name) for a couple of generations now.

    If anyone but the government does that, it is called theft. See Robin Hood.



    G.
    Indeed, but that group voting for redistributing the wealth in legislation has historically not been the poorest but people of some means, as the political class in all eras has been well off. So in fact liberals have voted for their own funds to be taxed and re-distributed.

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    Indeed, but that group voting for redistributing the wealth in legislation has historically not been the poorest but people of some means, as the political class in all eras has been well off. So in fact liberals have voted for their own funds to be taxed and re-distributed.
    I would also point out that most transfers of wealth occur between young to old, and between different areas.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  6. #206
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by creation View Post
    I never said all of christian morality is intended to be introduced, as of course abortion poses a dilemma regarding both mothers and foetuses. There are indeed gaps in framework of liberal morality, these have only become apparent since the 50s.
    You miss the point. It's not about liberal cherrypicking of which tenets they want to implement. It's about your distinction between implementing the "morality" and implementing (apparently) the forms and rituals. Christianity is about that morality, and the rituals are secondary.



    I have been reading of course.

    Indeed he would want that, as would we all, liberals, conservatives, Libertarians, communists. There are few non-devil worshipping people on the planet that would not want everyone of us to volunteer our funds.

    But could he or anyone else be sure it would actually happen? No. Would he want us to take the risk? Obviously not, as we are on earth, not heaven.

    So why would he want that when he could instead want you to vote for a system that automatically covers everyone?
    Several of us already said why. Go back and read.

    There's a distinction between the heavenly, which is eternal, and the earthly, which is minuscule. Earthly governments are just that -- minuscule and meaningless. Completely irrelevant to your individual standing with God. Jesus spoke from God's point of view, not man's.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That parable has nothing to do with the ownership of money. The only ownership it has to do with is your being owned by God. Instead, its basically telling you that you will have the same rewards in heaven regardless of whether you attain your salvation early in life and live a godly life or if you attain your salvation later in life after a lifetime of not doing the work of God.
    The parables of Jesus are not one dimensional. Lessons can be extrapolated from sentences and phrases as well as the entirety of the parable.

    He makes a specific case that you will receive what is right and that a man may do what he wishes with what he owns. The figurative value inherent to these statements does not contradict the literal message they convey.

    Jesus did not advocate forced charity (UHC), indeed such a concept is in diametric opposition to the message of Christ and of “God”.

    Jesus would have rejected any government confiscation of people’s goods in order to pay for other’s wants and needs. He would have implored individuals to be generous and giving of their own volition, not as a mere consequence of government force.

    Its teaching is about the equality of all the disciples in the reward of inheriting eternal life.
    The overall lesson does nothing to detract from the small truths contained within.

    I am analyzing the bricks and you are analyzing the building, both have value.

  8. #208
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Abortion is murder.

    Liberals are satanists.

    Taxation is stealing.

    Obama's healthcare plane is 'evil'.

    Christians Evangelicals, one of the largest clearly right wing groups in this country, and many other Christian groups use their beliefs and religiously charged rhetoric on a constant basis to make everybody else see their points but you point out that Jesus might have been a socialist in the general sense of the word and all the sudden it's not cool. I mean from what I've read he was feeding poor people, helping sick people walk again, curing blind kids. All for nothing. You'd think the same people who constantly parade him around like the world's only bastion of goodness would be the first in line to be socialists instead of complaining about not being able to afford an extra hamburger a day.
    Which is why I believe that the vast majority of "Christians" have very little understanding of what Jesus Christ was all about.
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  9. #209
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Let me try to summarize my beliefs on this subject the best I can. I am not saying that Christians have to or even necessarily should support a federal Universal Health care System. It's foolish to think that a Christian or anyone for that matter should have to from a moral perspective support a program that could very well be unworkable just because the intentions of it are good.

    My personal opinion as to the various bills being debated in congress right now is that they do not do enough to curb costs, they don't address the major issue of personal responsibility for ones health, and being that we have some 300 million people in this country with tens of millions of uninsured and under-insured, I have my doubts about whether such an effort to insure the uninsured and better insure the under-insured could ever be effectively managed and thus would ultimately do anything to control spiraling costs.

    What I am doing is actually addressing the larger issue, this compartmentalized Christianity that has been promoted by the religious right for the past 30 years. Basically, they selectively draw this line that exists no where in scripture between how you are called to act as an individual and how your government acts. I say selectively because they are quick to attempt to use the government to promote their religious beliefs. Such as their attempts to bring prayer back in school, religious beliefs into biology class, the entire same sex marriage issue and so on. Basically, anytime it suits their larger political ideology. However, because they are aligned with a political ideology far more than the Christian faith, they also will excuse injustices practiced by the government. The problem is, if you as an individual are not supposed to torture someone, then you should work to ensure that the government that you elect is not torturing people. If you the individual are supposed to be a good steward of creation, then you should work to ensure that the government you elect is one as well. If you the individual are supposed to seek peace and justice whenever possible, then you should work to ensure your government that you elect and that represents you does the same.

    You see in scripture kings are told to be righteous and just as well. In a republic, every citizen is something of a king. So just like David and Solomon had to be wise, righteous, and just kings, every Christian voter has to be when going to the polls or the town halls as well.

    Its very dangerous when people choose to compartmentalize their conscience when its politically expedient to their personal ideology.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 08-14-09 at 07:00 PM.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  10. #210
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    Re: Healthcare question for Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The parables of Jesus are not one dimensional. Lessons can be extrapolated from sentences and phrases as well as the entirety of the parable.

    He makes a specific case that you will receive what is right and that a man may do what he wishes with what he owns. The figurative value inherent to these statements does not contradict the literal message they convey.

    Jesus did not advocate forced charity (UHC), indeed such a concept is in diametric opposition to the message of Christ and of “God”.
    You cannot just get what you want out of a parable, everything must be looked at in the context it was used in. In Christianity, God owns you, God can do what he wants with you. You ultimately own nothing, you are merely a tenant of God's creation.

    People get what they want out of scripture all the time.

    Take the whole "the poor will always be with you" line you hear all the time when people try to argue that is an excuse for doing nothing about the poor as if Jesus was saying there will always be poor people around and there is nothing you can do about it so just worry about me.

    However, in context its obvious that's not what he meant at all. They were in the house of Simon the Leper. When Jesus said the poor will always be with you, but you will not always have me. He meant that his time with him was short, but as Christians who followed him, the poor would always be with them because his people would always be with the sick and the poor.

    Jesus would have rejected any government confiscation of people’s goods in order to pay for other’s wants and needs. He would have implored individuals to be generous and giving of their own volition, not as a mere consequence of government force.
    Please point out in scripture where Jesus advocated not paying taxes. Do you honestly believe that Jesus was cool with taxing the people to enrich the Romans but would not have been cool with people of their own volition voting in a safetynet for the sick and the poor.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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