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Is dissent the highest form of patriotism?

Is dissent the highest form patriotism?

  • Total voters
    30
celticlord said:
Oh, there's no denying that there's a lot of dumb dissent out there. Still, if someone disagrees with the status quo, for whatever reason, without a little dissent, nothing will ever get done about the status quo.

I look at it this way--without dissent, this country would not exist. Dissent may not always be right, but it's always necessary--and that is why I put it at the top.
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No argument.
 
Dezaad said:
I would imagine that some people here think of the disruptions at town hall meetings as 'dissent' when actually they are more a form of civil disobedience that expresses a distrust of the notion of freedom of speech. As such, they run counter to the notion of a marketplace of ideas, and are thereby entirely un-patriotic.
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People who incessantly shout down others at town meetings should be removed from the premises, but let's not pretend like these are the majority of people at the health care discussions. The statistics show that a healthy majority of Americans do not like the primary reform options as offered up by the Democrats. People on the left like to pretend that this is the Republican's fault despite the mathematical impossibility of such. You own Congress and the White House. You can do what you like...
 
Dezaad said:
I would imagine that some people here think of the disruptions at town hall meetings as 'dissent' when actually they are more a form of civil disobedience that expresses a distrust of the notion of freedom of speech. As such, they run counter to the notion of a marketplace of ideas, and are thereby entirely un-patriotic.

A democracy cannot function when disrespect toward one's fellow citizen arises in the form of wishing to drown out their voice. I have said so many times here when stating that I passionately want the Democrats to ensure that Republicans are a well represented voice during the time that they are minority in our government.
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There can be some merit to this. At the same time, representation is not merely about people's ideas but also their passions. When people are voicing anger, it is the duty of their representative to hear that anger, and to respond to that, just as much as to any idea or alternative proposal.

Before the juggernaut of government can be moved in a new direction, it must be brought to a halt in the current direction. If a proposed bit of legislation is not seen as achieving the goals set out--in the matter of HR3200, if it will not, in truth, deliver substantive reform of healthcare and merely another layer of regulation, bureaucracy, cost, and ultimately taxation, then it is hardly an irrational position to say that HR3200 is worse than doing nothing, that the status quo--as bad as it may be--is preferable to the anticipated consequences of HR3200's passage.

If one believes that to be the case--and I am one such person--then stopping HR3200 in its tracks is itself a positive step. Yes, there are other proposals and other ideas out there, and, yes, there should be meaningful discussion of them all, but the nature of Congress being as it is, that debate will not happen until the primary focus of the Congress, HR3200, is sent down to defeat.
If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth— certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn.
Henry David Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience"​
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Ethereal said:
I think us rebellious American-types have rubbed off a little on Laila.

:twisted:
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You know you have, i envy you for the chance you have to sort out your country. :2wave:

We're too far gone to get back many of our liberties like right to bear arms
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
I'd like to think so. She is interested in shooting.

:gunner:
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Even more amazing considering when i first started the forum i was advocating a world ban on it o_O

Nice to know i can grow out of such phases and walk into common sense :p
 
I don't think dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Willingness to die for your country is. This is not the same as a willingness to serve in the military. Some people can serve in the military all their lives and never once set foot in a war zone or even close to one. An example outside the military of this is being a cop. They are willing to die so that others will not get harmed. A firefighter is another example. They are willing to put themselves in a deadly situation just so that others may live...even if they die.

Another thing that is higher than dissent imo is a willingness to do whatever you can to make your country a better place. While dissent can often be a part of this process it is not the only thing that can be done to make your country a better place.
 
Laila said:
Even more amazing considering when i first started the forum i was advocating a world ban on it o_O

Nice to know i can grow out of such phases and walk into common sense :p
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wow..you wanted this forum banned? Or did I miss something???
 
GySgt said:
Yet, its this foolish concept that wins wars for America. The most patriotic minded nation in the world has a track record for winning. France has a history of losing land to invaders while relying upon outsiders for salvation and they mock our patriotism. Coincidence?
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What makes you think that the United States is the most patriotic minded nation in the world? And what makes you think that the French aren't patriotic? As far as Western Europeans go, I've always thought of the French as being one of the MOST patriotic. In fact, they tend to go overboard sometimes, as in their frequent efforts to mandate the French language and suppress cultural things that are "un-French" such as wearing headscarves.

Does patriotism win wars? I'm sure it helps...but it also has a lot of nasty effects, such as those I mentioned above in France. In this country, it often manifests itself in troglodyte anti-trade, anti-aid, and anti-immigrant fervor.

I don't consider myself patriotic...not out of any hatred of my country, but because I try to avoid hive-mindedness. To paraphrase Mark Twain, REAL patriotism is supporting your government only when it deserves your support.
 
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Kandahar said:
To paraphrase Mark Twain, REAL patriotism is supporting your government only when it deserves your support.
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Mark Twain was a good guy...But he was wrong on this one. There is more to being patriotic than just supporting ones government...even when it's just when it deserves your support. Patriotism is also about the people and the culture and the history.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Ok wasn't sure :) Thought you were talking about the forum but now I'm guessing you were meaning patriotism?
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Guns love, i was talking about guns
 
Kal'Stang said:
Mark Twain was a good guy...But he was wrong on this one. There is more to being patriotic than just supporting ones government...even when it's just when it deserves your support. Patriotism is also about the people and the culture and the history.
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I guess this is problematic for me because "patriotism" is not a clearly defined concept. America certainly has unique people, culture, and history...but every country is unique in its own way (which I guess makes none of them unique). I feel more comfortable with Americans and American culture than I would anywhere else in the world...but that's mainly because I've spent more time around my fellow Americans, not because of patriotism. A lot of times when I hear people say they're patriotic (or criticize me for NOT being patriotic), I ask them what exactly they're advocating.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I don't think it is wise to show love or devotion for an individuals place of residence solely because they were born there no.

I don't care what the French or anyone else does for that matter.
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America's patriotism has to do more with its ideals than territory specifically. So do you believe in the ideals on what our country was founded?
 
Harshaw said:
Many of you said so, even only several months ago.

Still think so?
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The highest form of patriotism to ones country is service to that country like firefighters,police,law enforcement, and military. I would say serving in elected office,but seeing how many politicians are corrupt, insist of tossing the salad of globalist scum,illegals, letting foreign countries and foreign companies run our ports and insist on selling American jobs down the river they can't no way in any shape or form be considering patriotic seeing how doing those things are the opposite of patriotism.
 
America's patriotism has to do more with its ideals than territory specifically. So do you believe in the ideals on what our country was founded?
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If a lifelong American citizen disagrees with these ideals, are they less patriotic than an illegal immigrant or a foreigner in general that agrees with them?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
If a lifelong American citizen disagrees with these ideals, are they less patriotic than an illegal immigrant or a foreigner in general that agrees with them?
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I'm afraid so, as a general rule if a person opposes the fundamental beliefs and culture of a society they cannot be patriotic.
 
I'm afraid so, as a general rule if a person opposes the fundamental beliefs and culture of a society they cannot be patriotic.
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If that is the case then it is not at all tied to the American nation, and is simply an independent belief system. To claim that it is patriotic in any way is then false.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
If that is the case then it is not at all tied to the American nation, and is simply an independent belief system. To claim that it is patriotic in any way is then false.
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The problem is that for most nations patriotism is somewhat like a tribal thing, loyalty to tribe, but in America we gain our identity from founding principals and to some extent others which have come after.
 
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