Should Orchestrated (fake) Protests Be Allowed To Hinder Free Speech?

Kal'Stang said:

In those town hall meetings show me an example of intimidation. Where were the speakers threatened.

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It's pretty obvious that the genuine, local people who went to hear the HC issue debated were prevented from hearing all but the "Just Say No" shouts that were intended to do just that..... Prevent the free speech of one side from being heard. Why they weren't simply removed by the police is beyond me.

This has got to be the absolute dumbest thread I've seen here so far.

Everyone read along with me:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Here, read it again. I'll highlight the relevant parts for you:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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You know what that says? It says that Congress may not violate your right to free speech. It doesn't say anything about private individuals, corporations, groups, protesters, or anyone else outside of Congress. Therefore, if one group is attempting to prevent another group from speaking and/or being heard, it is in no way running afoul of the First Amendment.

You have no Constitutional right to express your views free from interference from anyone and everyone. It just isn't there.

You may now continue on with the idiocy.

Ikari said:

Hold the press release on private property somewhere where you can keep the counter-protest away. Any law which could then classify a protest or counter-protest as "orchestrated" and allowing them to be shut down is very very dangerous. I would rather deal with the repercussions and consequences of free speech, assembly, and protest than I would authorize the government to act against these things.

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It may be a moot point anyway. The AFL-CIO has announced its intention to send (pro-HC reform) counter protesters to these town hall meetings to deal with the shouting thugs themselves.
I don't really like the idea of government action to stop protests either & maybe it would be better handled with "Thug On Thug", in your face tactics!
(I'll put my money on the hard hats vs the Brooks Bros suits (with Am Flag lapel pins) anyday~!)

Coronado said:

Everyone read along with me:Here, read it again. I'll highlight the relevant parts for you:

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Your highlights failed to cover a very important part of the wording:

"or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The word "peaceably" is no less important than any other part, & the taped protests I saw were far from peaceable.

This whole topic is completely ridiculous. What exactly did the protesters do that made it impossible for anyone to exercise free speech? Could you give a video or something as evidence?

And I am completely baffled that people actually think these protests and town hall meetings were somehow orchestrated by republican extremists. I have seen clips of a man demanding single payer healthcare. This isn't fake. There is absolutely no proof it is fake.

Anyone who dismisses these protests as fake is either knowingly lying about them or blatantly ignorant.

Devil505 said:

The word "peaceably" is no less important than any other part, & the taped protests were far from peaceable.

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Then ACORN protests should be illegal as well.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk0qCpvSjYU&feature=related"]YouTube - ACORN gets "Fired UP"[/ame]
And the protests against Bush should have never been allowed.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei1dXURSJvU"]YouTube - Bush = Protest after 1st Stolen Election[/ame]
"Your a bigot, a liar, a killer too."
Hm.
You can expect protesters to be angry, that is normally why they protest.
And here is another:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW4TCijNoQ4"]YouTube - Raw Video: Anti-Israel Protest in NYC[/ame]
I don't think my opinion would be heard if I shouted into that crowd.

Why is it that when conservatives protest (even though not all protesting were conservative) they are somehow going against free speech? Why is it that conservatives are "angry mobs" but people protesting conservatives are heroes? Are you completely blind to the double-standard you are taking part in?

Lakryte said:

This whole topic is completely ridiculous. What exactly did the protesters do that made it impossible for anyone to exercise free speech? Could you give a video or something as evidence?

And I am completely baffled that people actually think these protests and town hall meetings were somehow orchestrated by republican extremists. I have seen clips of a man demanding single payer healthcare. This isn't fake. There is absolutely no proof it is fake.

Anyone who dismisses these protests as fake is either knowingly lying about them or blatantly ignorant.

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Off topic response. The topic is "what if" & repeated efforts to derail it will not work.

Devil505 said:

Off topic response. The topic is "what if" & repeated efforts to derail it will not work.

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Off topic?

Devil505 said:

Since I & many others feel that the shouting protest at many health care rallies is being orchestrated,

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You made the first argument right there in the main post! It is not off topic whatsoever. I simply refuted it. If you have no valid response I understand. But to say my post was off topic when it debated something YOU said in the original post is as ridiculous as the notion of this topic in the first place.

And you ignored the rest of my post. Even if these protests are fake (which is completely false) they aren't illegal period. You didn't answer my question or give evidence. You simply picked on line and then labeled my whole response Off Topic. :doh

And if you are using Robert Gibbs suspicions to back up your claims...:rofl

Lakryte said:

This whole topic is completely ridiculous.

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I disagree & it would appear that roughly 1/2 of the poll responders also agree that protesters should not be allowed to prevent the free speech of their neighbors from being heard.

View Poll Results: Should protesters be allowed to curb free speech in this country?

Yes. Protests are protected by the Constitution. 12 60.00%

No. If protesters stop free speech, they should be removed by police. 7 35.00%

If fake protesters & their masters should be prosecuted. 4 20.00%

I disagree & it would appear that 1/2 of the poll responders also agree that protesters should not be allowed to prevent the free speech of their neighbors from being heard.

View Poll Results: Should protesters be allowed to curb free speech in this country?

Yes. Protests are protected by the Constitution. 12 60.00%

No. If protesters stop free speech, they should be removed by police. 7 35.00%

If fake protesters & their masters should be prosecuted. 4 20.00%

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So now you are using your own poll as evidence...once again, can you please tell me how these protests were preventing free speech?

Lakryte said:

So now you are using your own poll as evidence...once again, can you please tell me how these protests were preventing free speech?

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(reprint from mod warning on page 17 of this thread

Moderator's Warning:
Going to say this once, to both sides.

This thread is not talking about any specific event. Its the only reason its here, rather than conspiracy theories. If the continued attempts to either steer it towards a singular event, by either side, then action will be taken with the poster, the thread, or both.

Lakryte said:

This whole topic is completely ridiculous. What exactly did the protesters do that made it impossible for anyone to exercise free speech? Could you give a video or something as evidence?

And I am completely baffled that people actually think these protests and town hall meetings were somehow orchestrated by republican extremists. I have seen clips of a man demanding single payer healthcare. This isn't fake. There is absolutely no proof it is fake.

Anyone who dismisses these protests as fake is either knowingly lying about them or blatantly ignorant.

Why is it that when conservatives protest (even though not all protesting were conservative) they are somehow going against free speech? Why is it that conservatives are "angry mobs" but people protesting conservatives are heroes? Are you completely blind to the double-standard you are taking part in?

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How dishonest and disingenuous of you to claim this. First off, recognize a rally for a rally, a street protest for a street protest, and a town hall meeting for a town hall meeting. When people show up to shout down at a meeting, this disrupts the conversation, which is the whole intention. God damn, stop lying through your teeth people. If a conservative wishes to attend a town hall to voice his opposition, nobody is against that or complaining about that. Do you get it? How many times does this need to be repeated before it gets into the thick skulls?

If Republicans have a town hall meeting, and MoveOn.org attendees arrive to just shout and disrupt that is wrong as well, because the people in attendance have a right to assembly with their representatives which MoveOn would be attempting to squelch. But the issue we have here is that right wing groups have organized people to attend these town halls to disrupt, not engage in conversation, but to disrupt them so they can not be held as they are meant to. DO YOU FREAKING UNDERSTAND YET?

If I attend a town hall meeting, I should expect that I have the right to voice my own opinion in addressing opposition or support for any subject. Yet if a group counter to this arrives to just shout and disrupt, they are in fact infringing on my right given to me.

reprint from mod warning on page 17 of this thread

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I find it hard to believe that this topic was intended to generally talk about fake protests when you cited a specific example of one and insinuated that it was fake...and then made this comment:

The word "peaceably" is no less important than any other part, & the taped protests I saw were far from peaceable.

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but I will abide by the moderators wishes.

The first amendment reads (I added bold and italics):

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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"Fake" protests are not illegal, even if they are fake. They don't go against the Constitution. Everyone has the right to free speech.

If I attend a town hall meeting, I should expect that I have the right to voice my own opinion in addressing opposition or support for any subject. Yet if a group counter to this arrives to just shout and disrupt, they are in fact infringing on my right given to me.

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Yet you have no proof that the people attending the town hall meetings came for the purpose of shouting and disrupting them. I say many reasonable people ask reasonble questions. But I can't debate that on this topic, and neither can you, because this topic is not supposed to have anything to do with specific events.

Lakryte said:

And I am completely baffled that people actually think these protests and town hall meetings were somehow orchestrated by republican extremists. I have seen clips of a man demanding single payer healthcare. This isn't fake. There is absolutely no proof it is fake.

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy8i8FbVFyU"]YouTube - Rick Sanchez Grills CPR's Rick Scott[/ame]

Care to lie more?

Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies

Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

CPR is the group headed by controversial former hospitals exec Rick Scott that’s spending millions on ads attacking reform in all sorts of lurid ways, a campaign that’s being handled by the same P.R. mavens behind the Swift Boat Vets.

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FYI, Rick Scott, the fraudster

I suppose you can also ignore Bob MacGuffie and his leaked memo "Rocking the Town Halls: Best Practices". Pretty much spelled right there for you the tactics that will be used. And look at the date.....

Lakryte said:

"Fake" protests are not illegal, even if they are fake. They don't go against the Constitution. Everyone has the right to free speech.

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You may be right, but these are still dishonest actions. Funny how the organizers admit what is going on, yet the dittoheads don't.

Although I am curious; if a group goes to intentionally shut down a townhall meeting by protesting, is this not an infringement of my rights to assembly with my representatives?

Funny, you would think if the Republican party was still a legitimate party they would have simply offered an opposing idea. I guess the fact they can offer no more ideas shows just how dead of a party they are.

Care to lie more?

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How exactly did I lie? And one again we are not supposed to debate this issue on this topic.

Lakryte said:

So now you are using your own poll as evidence...once again, can you please tell me how these protests were preventing free speech?

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Seeing how all you have to do is turn your browser off and on you are free to vote as many times as you want without logging in. Which is why a lot of users make votes public and only count those votes.

Off topic?

You made the first argument right there in the main post! It is not off topic whatsoever. I simply refuted it. If you have no valid response I understand. But to say my post was off topic when it debated something YOU said in the original post is as ridiculous as the notion of this topic in the first place.

And you ignored the rest of my post. Even if these protests are fake (which is completely false) they aren't illegal period. You didn't answer my question or give evidence. You simply picked on line and then labeled my whole response Off Topic.

And if you are using Robert Gibbs suspicions to back up your claims...

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My point exactly how is the thread starter going to make a blatantly false premise and not expect others to question that premise? It is false to say talking about whether or not the protesters are fake is off topic.

Devil505 said:

It's pretty obvious that the genuine, local people who went to hear the HC issue debated were prevented from hearing all but the "Just Say No" shouts that were intended to do just that..... Prevent the free speech of one side from being heard. Why they weren't simply removed by the police is beyond me.

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Hmm the video's that I saw had a person asking a question and the people in the audiance agreeing with the question or booing the representitives for their answer. I don't recall a "just say no" slogan being hollered.

And I'm sorry mods but in the case of this thread it is obvious that this thread was brought about by specific events which was even talked about in the OP. Go ahead and move this thread to the Conspiracy section because it obviously belongs there. You can ban me from this thread if you wish but I will stand by what I have said. This thread started off on a false premise and it will no doubt continue as it has been. With vague references to "you know what" just because they fear the wrath of a mod. I may like this place but I tell things like I see them and will not kow tow to a mod when they are wrong. Which in this case I believe that you are. No disrespect is meant. It's just how I see it.

Devil505 said:

Since I & many others feel that the shouting protest at many health care rallies is being orchestrated, & appears designed to prevent the American voter from hearing the other side of the issue,

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So the whole argument is that those who oppose government run healthcare are better organized than those who support it.... Gotcha.


.

Lakryte said:

The first amendment reads (I added bold and italics):

"Fake" protests are not illegal, even if they are fake. They don't go against the Constitution. Everyone has the right to free speech.

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You conveniently keep failing to admit that First Amendment rights must be exercised "peaceably", otherwise they do not get protected (the local police have the power, authority & duty to "Keep the Peace.".

What gives any THUG the right to prevent others from exercising their Freedom of Speech?...NOTHING does or should!

Kal'Stang said:

And I'm sorry mods but in the case of this thread it is obvious that this thread was brought about by specific events which was even talked about in the OP. Go ahead and move this thread to the Conspiracy section because it obviously belongs there.

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There already is a thread regarding this in conspiracy theories. This thread asks a generic poll question & why some are trying to stifle/derail this thread only discloses the weakness of your argument & your fear of what you don't want heard by the American public.

Devil505 said:

You conveniently keep failing to admit that First Amendment rights must be exercised "peaceably", otherwise they do not get protected (the local police have the power, authority & duty to "Keep the Peace.".

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Were the people arrested? Was it a legal public gathering?

You have no argument here.

Devil505 said:

What gives any THUG the right to prevent others from exercising their Freedom of Speech?...NOTHING does or should!

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What thugs? People voicing their opinion loudly does not qualify as a thug. Your argument thus far amounts to hyperbole.

Blackdog said:

Were the people arrested? Was it a legal public gathering?

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Nice try but Off topic.

Answer the poll question if you feel the need to type:

Should protesters be allowed to curb free speech in this country?

Yes. Protests are protected by the Constitution.

No. If protesters stop free speech, they should be removed by police.

If fake protesters & their masters should be prosecuted.

TOJ said:

So the whole argument is that those who oppose government run healthcare are better organized than those who support it.... Gotcha.


.

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No..Just more obnoxious.

Nice try but Off topic.

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You need to stop. Right now. You keep calling these protesters thugs and fakes, and the minute somebody provides a counter argument you cry off topic and restate your poll. Now, I am going to respond to you without mentioning specific events, just like you want, even though you keep mentioning them yourself.

You conveniently keep failing to admit that First Amendment rights must be exercised "peaceably", otherwise they do not get protected (the local police have the power, authority & duty to "Keep the Peace.".

What gives any THUG the right to prevent others from exercising their Freedom of Speech?...NOTHING does or should!

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Who says that "fake" can't be peaceful? Your poll does not talk about "peacefulness" at all. And yes, thugs have the right to free speech. And can you please tell me how voicing your opinion loudly somehow prevents someone else to have free speech? Furthermore, the amendment states CONGRESS shall not infringe on the rights of free speech. So private citizens could stop free speech all they want and it wouldn't be against the constitution, though I do not see how that is possible.

How is it possible for protesters to prevent the free speech of anyone else?

Devil505 said:

Nice try but Off topic.

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You said...

"You conveniently keep failing to admit that First Amendment rights must be exercised "peaceably", otherwise they do not get protected (the local police have the power, authority & duty to "Keep the Peace." - Devil505

I then said...

"Were the people arrested? Was it a legal public gathering?

You have no argument here." - Blackdog

You opened the door. You brought it in.

Again you have no argument here.

Devil505 said:

Answer the poll question if you feel the need to type:

Should protesters be allowed to curb free speech in this country?

Yes. Protests are protected by the Constitution.

No. If protesters stop free speech, they should be removed by police.

If fake protesters & their masters should be prosecuted.

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I answered it pages ago. And you are still wrong. :mrgreen: