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Role of government in Education

role of state in education


  • Total voters
    21
I see this is a somewhat sensitive subject for you.

I have no idea if you are Mr. Icke or not.

If I posted a clips of me Mum and Pop saying w/e ideas I wanted to present, then they would be fair game as well.
However, I don't.

you are welcome to make a thread about Icke and trash him there all you want.

this thread is about education, not Reptilians.
 
you are welcome to make a thread about Icke and trash him there all you want. this thread is about education, not Reptilians.
If you don't want to discuss Icke, perhaps you should leave him out of your threads. I sure wouldn't have thought to include him in this thread on my own.
Please pardon me for noticing.
Carry on.
 
PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

option 1:

government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

option 2:

an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

option 3:

education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

-----------------------------

by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.



ummmmm..... I go with option 4. Allow the states to run the education system(which they already do for the most part), and keep the federal government out of it.

The problem with federal involvement is that the federal government tends to give money with stipulations. The stipulations are usually political ploys meant to look good to the electorate, but they usually achieve very little. When the federal funding is accepted, those stipulations are enforced on schools. When they are shown to be failures they are not rescinded.

So what we should do is continue the public education system, and keep it at the state level. Eliminate the small amount of federal involvement.
 
I think it's up the parents to instill basic knowledge to their kids, and up to the schools to uphold quality, unbiased education. The government should still provide civil education about the responsiblities and rights of citizens of x country.

Then again, I also think education needs to be reformed from this autocratic system to something more liberal, where students from a very young age can choose what to study.
 
Then again, I also think education needs to be reformed from this autocratic system to something more liberal, where students from a very young age can choose what to study.
Wouldn't the kids usually choose to study TV and sugary snacks?

I have learned over a long time that kids need iron discipline. I needed it, and didn't really get it.

Every child, with the possible exception of one who grew up and died in Judea long ago, is born a savage. His parents and other adults have just a few short years to mold him into something reasonably civilized.

Failure almost certainly guarantees a probably short lifetime of misery and destruction.

Childhood should be seen as an unsatisfactory condition which can be overcome with great effort, and patience (on the part of the child.)

Freedom is a misunderstood concept. In its purest form it's just chaos.

Much more useful is the concept of Liberty, which connotes an attached responsibility and an acknowledgment of limitations.
 
Wouldn't the kids usually choose to study TV and sugary snacks?

maybe. do you understand the concept called FREEDOM ? ? ?

I have learned over a long time that kids need iron discipline.

what if somebody *learns* that you need to have your testicles removed ?


Failure almost certainly guarantees a probably short lifetime of misery and destruction.

you mean a lifetime or partying and sex ...

Childhood should be seen as an unsatisfactory condition which can be overcome with great effort, and patience (on the part of the child.)

seek professional help ...

Freedom is a misunderstood concept. In its purest form it's just chaos.

Much more useful is the concept of Liberty, which connotes an attached responsibility and an acknowledgment of limitations.

you don't learn these limitations in school. you learn them in life. in school you learn limitations that don't exist.
 
PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

option 1:

government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

option 2:

an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

option 3:

education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

-----------------------------

by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.

This poll certainly is not flawed in any way, shape or form. :roll:
 
PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

option 1:

government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

option 2:

an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

option 3:

education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

-----------------------------

by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.


I don't like your options, so no answer.
 
Quality public education is the only means of creating a free and just society.

I agree with that statement. The rub is on how to go about achieving it.

First, it is none of the Federal government's business. If they the Feds, play any role it ought to give loans and/or grants to students to spend where that student feels it is in that student's best interest. Sort of like the old National Defense Student Loan Program.

Education is best when control is kept at the lowest level possible and where there is freedom of choice offered to the students and especially the parents.

The excellence of a school is NOT measured in its football record or the number of computers in the classrooms. It is measured by the ability of the students to gain knowledge in the basics and the ability to think/reason for themselves.

In my world the parents would have choice of any public school they wanted. I don't like the ideas of mandatory school districts.

The vast majority of the people's money taken in the form of taxes would go to hiring the best teachers at the best wage we could give them.....screw the school buildings. Then I would hold them responsible for results....not effort.

Those are just a few simple jumping off few ideas in my world of education.
 
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PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

option 1:

government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

option 2:

an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

option 3:

education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

-----------------------------

by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.

This could be such a great thread with opportunity for great discussion. I really wish your poll had been a great poll with a legitimate choice of options.

I don't think any human is capable of fully educating any other human in all that anybody should know, but neverthless humans have collecively and effectively helped educate other humans throughout all of human history. Your poll did not include that option.

I think there is absolutely a role for government in the education of its citizens, but I don't think the way our government is currently going about that is competently educating its citizens. You poll did not include an option even close to what I think the governmet role should be.

When you don't give people a single option they can accept as truth, not even an 'other', a poll is useless.
 
Article I. Section 8 of the Constitution:

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
All of the powers of Congress after that first paragraph could be considered part of the "general welfare" or "common defense". If the founders intended that providing general welfare was a power of Congress, why would they list all of those rights? They all have to do with general welfare and common defense.

What would the purpose of the 10th amendment be? Pretty much everything falls under common defense and general welfare.

Now let us take a look at what one of the founders said about the constitution regarding this specific section.

According to James Madison, the term ‘general welfare’ was meant to generalize about the specifically enumerated powers in A1 Section 8 of the Constitution. (the ones listed below)
James Madison said:
With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators. If the words obtained so readily a place in the "Articles of Confederation," and received so little notice in their admission into the present Constitution, and retained for so long a time a silent place in both, the fairest explanation is, that the words, in the alternative of meaning nothing or meaning everything, had the former meaning taken for granted.
Above he states that the term ‘general welfare’ is defined by the other powers in A1 S8 and means nothing more. He was also perplexed that those opposed to the constitution had the fear that the term ‘general welfare’ would give congress unlimited power, when similar wording appeared in the weaker Articles of Confederation, which they supported.
economic sense: PROMOTING THE GENERAL WELFARE
Right now, by having public education and universal healthcare on the way, we are going against what the founders had planned. They never fathomed that what is happening now could ever possibly happen. They wrongly assumed that America would have common sense.
 
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According to James Madison, the term ‘general welfare’ was meant to generalize about the specifically enumerated powers in A1 Section 8 of the Constitution. (the ones listed below)

It's not that they can't get it.

They refuse to get it.

Logic is anathema to the Left.
 
Quality public education is the only means of creating a free and just society.

Damn, how did the United States survive as a free society for the 100+ years before the Congress violated the Constitution and began imposing public schools on everyone?
 
Damn, how did the United States survive as a free society for the 100+ years before the Congress violated the Constitution and began imposing public schools on everyone?

I have no problem with public education so long as it is at the local level. As all parents do not have the temperament or discipline to competently homeschool their kids, the child would benefit from competent tutors - or - the community can hire competent teachers to provide education to groups of students. And education will be far more competent if it is directed and monitored at the local level.

Trying to do one-size-fits-all education from the Federal level for a nation as large and diverse as the USA is absurd on the face of it. And as our Founders feared a Federal government that was too large, too intrusive, too authoritarian, too invasive, we should also be ever conscious that protecting our freedom from such a government means that we do not hand over the instruction and indoctrination of our children to such a government.

By all means let the federal government gather data and statistics so the various states can assess how well they are educating the kids in comparison to other places. But the Federal government should not be developing curriculum, funding, or dictating mandates to the states. And it should not be aiding and abetting unions that intend to increase their own power and fortunes whether or not that improves the quality of education.
 
What Americans in their infinity stupidity cannot understand is that Education is the greatest luxury

a person who received a truly worthy education should consider himself as lucky as a person who got a successful heart transplant

but Americans think it is a right. no you do NOT have a right to somebody else's heart ! if you got one you should be kissing the ground on which you walk.

what kids get in school is CRAP. they get what the government feels they ought to get - like McDonalds junk food.

the effect of having these McDonaldses on every corner is that people now actually think that is food. its not food! its POISON.
 
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I have no problem with public education so long as it is at the local level.

Unfortunately, that's not the scene today, and certainly not what the left means when they babble about "public education".

By all means let the federal government gather data and statistics so the various states can assess how well they are educating the kids in comparison to other places. But the Federal government should not be developing curriculum, funding, or dictating mandates to the states. And it should not be aiding and abetting unions that intend to increase their own power and fortunes whether or not that improves the quality of education.

It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.
 
It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.

That becomes problematic when the American public as a whole, themselves, view education in terms of "America's schools"-even though the education system is incredibly complex and difficult to evaluate locally, let alone federally.
 
Unfortunately, that's not the scene today, and certainly not what the left means when they babble about "public education".



It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.

Yes. I don't want the Federal government to give 'grades' or set standards or issue a curriculum, but the Federal government could play a useful role by compiling and dispensing data that would give parents, school administrators, school boards, etc. a way to evaluate their effectiveness compared to others. Otherwise they could think they are doing okay when in fact they are not. It is too late to find that out when most of the kids are flunking college entrance exams or the kids are missing necessary prerequisites for good colleges.

It would be a lot easier to have a central place to go for that kind of information instead of each school trying to pull it all together.
 
That becomes problematic when the American public as a whole, themselves, view education in terms of "America's schools"-even though the education system is incredibly complex and difficult to evaluate locally, let alone federally.

Yes, the "American" education system failed in it's most basic task, teaching Americans how their own government is supposed to work.
 
Yes. I don't want the Federal government to give 'grades' or set standards or issue a curriculum, but the Federal government could play a useful role by compiling and dispensing data that would give parents, school administrators, school boards, etc. a way to evaluate their effectiveness compared to others. Otherwise they could think they are doing okay when in fact they are not. It is too late to find that out when most of the kids are flunking college entrance exams or the kids are missing necessary prerequisites for good colleges.

It would be a lot easier to have a central place to go for that kind of information instead of each school trying to pull it all together.

Better yet, the states can pay independent private companies to compile that data for them, and leave the federal government out of it.
 
Better yet, the states can pay independent private companies to compile that data for them, and leave the federal government out of it.

I don't know how 'anti-government' you might be, but I do see Constitutionally mandated roles for the Federal government. We probably do agree that the Federal government should do only that which cannot be done more effectively, efficiently, or economically on the state or local level or by private enterprise.

I do see compilation of history, data, vital statistics, etc. as a valid role for the Federal government so that there is a secure, permanent, and lasting repository for that information, and so that there is one single central source where it is available when needed. Private businesses can merge with others, go out of business, move off shore, or any number of things that would make them dangerous as the only source for vital statistics. And to hire a private business to do the exhaustive research necessary would be extremely expensive, probably cost prohibitive, or at least much more difficult to coordinate even if the states went in together.

But however that part is done, we do agree that we do not want the Federal government to have any power whatsoever to indoctrinate the citizens, most especially the children.
 
What Americans in their infinity stupidity ... POISON.
You must be the most enlightened person to ever grace these boards. We are all in due awe of you. Please tell us more.
Do you have a pamphlet or a tract?
 
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