View Poll Results: role of state in education

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  • option 1 - see post

    5 16.67%
  • option 2 - see post

    13 43.33%
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    12 40.00%
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Thread: Role of government in Education

  1. #111
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by NEUROSPORT View Post
    PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A PUBLIC POLL

    option 1:

    government is all knowing, it is always right, it never lies, it has no hidden agendas, sociopaths have no interest in running for office. we are nothing but sinners, we know nothing, our government wouldn't just murder us if we asked it to go away. we must all hand the minds of our children over to the government and let the government form their world view. it worked for Hitler, Stalin and Mao so it can't be wrong.

    option 2:

    an average adult is either not willing or not able to provide his children with the best possible education. the government should use its massive resources to ASSIST in educating children. this assistance should come in the form of vouchers and the government should be prohibited from running any schools of its own. allowing the government to run its own schools is allowing the state to control the minds of young people and since everybody was once young to effectively control the minds of all of its subjects.

    option 3:

    education is a good, it is not a right. the government has no responsibility to provide or assist anybody with education. strip dancing is a good way for a young woman to pay for college. we don't need every retard to study astrophysics. somebody has to clean the toilets. let the market sort the suckers out.

    -----------------------------

    by the way option 1 is what we have today. option 3 is what Ron Paul wants. option 2 is what i want.
    This could be such a great thread with opportunity for great discussion. I really wish your poll had been a great poll with a legitimate choice of options.

    I don't think any human is capable of fully educating any other human in all that anybody should know, but neverthless humans have collecively and effectively helped educate other humans throughout all of human history. Your poll did not include that option.

    I think there is absolutely a role for government in the education of its citizens, but I don't think the way our government is currently going about that is competently educating its citizens. You poll did not include an option even close to what I think the governmet role should be.

    When you don't give people a single option they can accept as truth, not even an 'other', a poll is useless.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #112
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Article I. Section 8 of the Constitution:

    Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

    To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

    To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

    To establish post offices and post roads;

    To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

    To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

    To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

    To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

    To provide and maintain a navy;

    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

    To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
    All of the powers of Congress after that first paragraph could be considered part of the "general welfare" or "common defense". If the founders intended that providing general welfare was a power of Congress, why would they list all of those rights? They all have to do with general welfare and common defense.

    What would the purpose of the 10th amendment be? Pretty much everything falls under common defense and general welfare.

    Now let us take a look at what one of the founders said about the constitution regarding this specific section.

    According to James Madison, the term ‘general welfare’ was meant to generalize about the specifically enumerated powers in A1 Section 8 of the Constitution. (the ones listed below)
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators. If the words obtained so readily a place in the "Articles of Confederation," and received so little notice in their admission into the present Constitution, and retained for so long a time a silent place in both, the fairest explanation is, that the words, in the alternative of meaning nothing or meaning everything, had the former meaning taken for granted.
    Above he states that the term ‘general welfare’ is defined by the other powers in A1 S8 and means nothing more. He was also perplexed that those opposed to the constitution had the fear that the term ‘general welfare’ would give congress unlimited power, when similar wording appeared in the weaker Articles of Confederation, which they supported.
    economic sense: PROMOTING THE GENERAL WELFARE
    Right now, by having public education and universal healthcare on the way, we are going against what the founders had planned. They never fathomed that what is happening now could ever possibly happen. They wrongly assumed that America would have common sense.
    Last edited by Lakryte; 08-01-09 at 08:57 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    According to James Madison, the term ‘general welfare’ was meant to generalize about the specifically enumerated powers in A1 Section 8 of the Constitution. (the ones listed below)
    It's not that they can't get it.

    They refuse to get it.

    Logic is anathema to the Left.

  4. #114
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Quality public education is the only means of creating a free and just society.
    Damn, how did the United States survive as a free society for the 100+ years before the Congress violated the Constitution and began imposing public schools on everyone?

  5. #115
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Damn, how did the United States survive as a free society for the 100+ years before the Congress violated the Constitution and began imposing public schools on everyone?
    I have no problem with public education so long as it is at the local level. As all parents do not have the temperament or discipline to competently homeschool their kids, the child would benefit from competent tutors - or - the community can hire competent teachers to provide education to groups of students. And education will be far more competent if it is directed and monitored at the local level.

    Trying to do one-size-fits-all education from the Federal level for a nation as large and diverse as the USA is absurd on the face of it. And as our Founders feared a Federal government that was too large, too intrusive, too authoritarian, too invasive, we should also be ever conscious that protecting our freedom from such a government means that we do not hand over the instruction and indoctrination of our children to such a government.

    By all means let the federal government gather data and statistics so the various states can assess how well they are educating the kids in comparison to other places. But the Federal government should not be developing curriculum, funding, or dictating mandates to the states. And it should not be aiding and abetting unions that intend to increase their own power and fortunes whether or not that improves the quality of education.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #116
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    What Americans in their infinity stupidity cannot understand is that Education is the greatest luxury

    a person who received a truly worthy education should consider himself as lucky as a person who got a successful heart transplant

    but Americans think it is a right. no you do NOT have a right to somebody else's heart ! if you got one you should be kissing the ground on which you walk.

    what kids get in school is CRAP. they get what the government feels they ought to get - like McDonalds junk food.

    the effect of having these McDonaldses on every corner is that people now actually think that is food. its not food! its POISON.
    Last edited by NEUROSPORT; 08-04-09 at 03:34 AM.

  7. #117
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I have no problem with public education so long as it is at the local level.
    Unfortunately, that's not the scene today, and certainly not what the left means when they babble about "public education".

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    By all means let the federal government gather data and statistics so the various states can assess how well they are educating the kids in comparison to other places. But the Federal government should not be developing curriculum, funding, or dictating mandates to the states. And it should not be aiding and abetting unions that intend to increase their own power and fortunes whether or not that improves the quality of education.
    It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.

  8. #118
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.
    That becomes problematic when the American public as a whole, themselves, view education in terms of "America's schools"-even though the education system is incredibly complex and difficult to evaluate locally, let alone federally.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  9. #119
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Unfortunately, that's not the scene today, and certainly not what the left means when they babble about "public education".



    It's the states' job to evaluate their success and failures, not the federal government's. That goes part and parcel with establishing a curriculum, which is a local matter.
    Yes. I don't want the Federal government to give 'grades' or set standards or issue a curriculum, but the Federal government could play a useful role by compiling and dispensing data that would give parents, school administrators, school boards, etc. a way to evaluate their effectiveness compared to others. Otherwise they could think they are doing okay when in fact they are not. It is too late to find that out when most of the kids are flunking college entrance exams or the kids are missing necessary prerequisites for good colleges.

    It would be a lot easier to have a central place to go for that kind of information instead of each school trying to pull it all together.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #120
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    Re: Role of government in Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That becomes problematic when the American public as a whole, themselves, view education in terms of "America's schools"-even though the education system is incredibly complex and difficult to evaluate locally, let alone federally.
    Yes, the "American" education system failed in it's most basic task, teaching Americans how their own government is supposed to work.

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