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Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

Is the left's war on health care doomed?

  • Total voters
    25
The polling momentum is against the scheme now. I doubt it can be recovered in the foreseeable future.
 
"Doomed" might be a bit premature. HR3200 is definitely in trouble, though.

For good reasons:

  • It does not reform health care. That would require the investment in preventive medicine found in HR2520 and S1099.
  • It does not reform health insurance. Congress would have to pass HR2520 and S1099 to accomplish that.
  • It does not contain or control health costs, which would happen under the market mechanisms of HR2520 and S1099.
  • It imposes government regulation and government bureaucracy to limit care and limit choice, something HR2520 and S1099 wisely avoid.
On top of all that, HR3200 commits the worst legislative sin of all:

HR3200 is UNCONSTITUTIONAL

A defect which cannot be said of HR2520 and S1099.​
 
Being unconstitutional never stopped a bill before. We're paying for Socialist Security, aren't we?

But that the bill is failing is damn good news.
 
The problem is, they want health care to magically get better but they're not willing to attack the actual problems inherent in the system that have caused it to be as bad as it is to begin with. Given the ridiculous litigious nature of ambulance-chasing lawyers who sue because they know most doctors can't spare the time to sit in a courtroom, which causes malpractice insurance to skyrocket and raise everyone's cost, given the fact that government and insurance companies only pay about 10-20% of the actual cost of procedures, thereby forcing hospitals to charge $2000 for $200 procedures to make their money back, it's no wonder we have problems, but nothing Obama's plan does addresses either of these. He just hopes that magically everything will get better instead of recognizing that to fix the problems, the fundamental nature of the health care industry needs to change and that'll piss off pretty much everyone, especially the people who pump millions into the Democrat election coffers.
 
As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
 
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Cephus said:
The problem is, they want health care to magically get better but they're not willing to attack the actual problems inherent in the system that have caused it to be as bad as it is to begin with. Given the ridiculous litigious nature of ambulance-chasing lawyers who sue because they know most doctors can't spare the time to sit in a courtroom, which causes malpractice insurance to skyrocket and raise everyone's cost, given the fact that government and insurance companies only pay about 10-20% of the actual cost of procedures, thereby forcing hospitals to charge $2000 for $200 procedures to make their money back, it's no wonder we have problems, but nothing Obama's plan does addresses either of these. He just hopes that magically everything will get better instead of recognizing that to fix the problems, the fundamental nature of the health care industry needs to change and that'll piss off pretty much everyone, especially the people who pump millions into the Democrat election coffers.
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Those politicians don't give a rat's ass about health care and the health of Americans. All they care about is getting control of the health care industry and the power that will give them.

A politician lives by "doing" things "for" his constituents. The more he can do for them, the more impressive he looks in their eyes and the more assurance he has of being re-elected. Socailized medicine is one of the ultimate scams by which the politician creates a flawed system for which he won't be blamed (notice the Messiah's perpetual condemnation of Bush - it's not just his whiny menstrual cycle in action, it's deliberate) and for which he can claim infinite credit for "saving lives".

No matter that under a federal aegis health care in this nation will be rationed. The word rationing isn't going to be mentioned by the beneficiaries of socialized medicine, the politicians. Every and all problems associated with health care will be the fault of "Goldstein", ie, the evil profiteering insurance and pharmaceutical companies. Every and all special dispensation by the government will be promoted as the benevolent gift of the concerned parent to the deserving child.
 
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This is the first time in a while that I am so staunchly against a Democratic bill. Its not reform, but it is change, but is it the right change? I don't think so.

I hope this bill fails, and then we should take the Republicans plan ...

Oh wait, what plan? Where have all the other plans gone! Oh my!
 
We have the best health care in the world, if one can afford it....

The poor and near poor... a fast growing segment ??, the scraps for them....

Those in the middle ??
When the entire world (except the USA and Somalia) has a good affordable health care system, then maybe the AMA and the wealthy conservatives will accede, out of embarrassment.
 
And who will the Dems blame, even though they have a solid majority in both houses, including a fillibuster-proof Senate?

That's right -- the GOP.

Never mind that the GOP can't do a THING to stop it.
 
Orius said:
As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
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It has nothing to do with not wanting to help people. Hell I help strangers all the time.

The problem is that we demand that our rights not be taken away. Which is what this health bill attempts to do.
 
Orius said:
Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
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The thing is that here in the US nearly everyone can rise above poverty if they make the right choices and work hard enough. So there is no reason the poor cannot have more in life if they choose.
 
The Senate Finance committee and Baucus / Grassley are the game to watch, but,

But, as to the poll question - doomed? No way, this baby's gonna pass.
 
Orius said:
As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
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The fight against the evil USSR consumed and shaped our national identity. Most people in their 30s and older had fear of communism and socialism drilled into them at a very very young age, so anything that sounds like it might be part of a belief system that we fought against for so long is not popular here. Although, oddly enough, for all the opposition tried to demonize obama as a "socialist" in the last election, what they seemed to have accomplished is convincing under-30s that socialism ain't that bad. Under 30s liked Obama in overwhelming numbers, and the opposition said he was a socialist, so now under 30s aren't afraid of socialism. :rofl

However, the individualist is a strong theme in our culture too, from our pioneer and immigrant history, probably.
 
Whats the matter with u fellas,if u are not working and have no money,i think
u should get look after,what is the problem about that if your ill.,but if u dont like that way just die,if u want it that way,by by..

mikeey
 
What can u do if u dont have a place to live,also no money,is it dog eat dog
in America,if it is like that u deserve all u get for not helping each other out.

mind u look what happend to the banks,how they stole of the working people,

here in the uk they just did that,but just like me i fu--k them in every way i could,no probs about that. I hope u guys do the same.

love u American guys forever and ever.

To the End of Time.

mikeey
 
Kal'Stang said:
It has nothing to do with not wanting to help people. Hell I help strangers all the time.

The problem is that we demand that our rights not be taken away. Which is what this health bill attempts to do.
Click to expand...

Your right to the opportunity of UHC was taken away when your government decided to spend half a trillion dollars on its military annually. It could spare 1% of that to create UHC infrastructure that would not increase your taxes.

The "right" you speak of revolves around the idea that you should get to choose your health care. That won't change with UHC. You just don't like the idea that your tax dollars would pay for someone else, that's all. It's this type of greed and distrust that is leading the U.S. down a dangerous divisionist path.
 
Baralis said:
The thing is that here in the US nearly everyone can rise above poverty if they make the right choices and work hard enough. So there is no reason the poor cannot have more in life if they choose.
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If you seriously believe that, then you wouldn't mind explaining why there are so many homeless people and millions living below the poverty line? Clearly not everyone has opportunity... you make poverty seem so black and white. It's never that simple.
 
Orius said:
Your right to the opportunity of UHC was taken away when your government decided to spend half a trillion dollars on its military annually. It could spare 1% of that to create UHC infrastructure that would not increase your taxes.
Click to expand...

Our military helped defeat Nazism, Japanese Imperialism, and Communism. How easily the world forgets...

The "right" you speak of revolves around the idea that you should get to choose your health care. That won't change with UHC. You just don't like the idea that your tax dollars would pay for someone else, that's all. It's this type of greed and distrust that is leading the U.S. down a dangerous divisionist path.
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That's exactly right. I don't like the idea of my money being forcefully redistributed to strangers. What's wrong with that?
 
Ethereal said:
Our military helped defeat Nazism, Japanese Imperialism, and Communism. How easily the world forgets...
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How much longer are people like you going to continue to milk the nationalist propaganda machine in order to justify lack of present action? I don't give a damn what happened 50+ years ago... it is not relevant to current domestic policy. Fact is, your government could spare that 1% easily while still maintaining a forward domestic momentum; the other fact is, though, that it won't, for the simple fact that the U.S. is a military nation and the welfare of its citizens is low priority.

Your entire system is setup to cater to the rich elites, and health care is one such aparatus: the pharmaceutical industry with its inflated prices, the insurance companies (and their corrupt, scheming rules), and the lack of public policy to regulate either.

Ethereal said:
That's exactly right. I don't like the idea of my money being forcefully redistributed to strangers. What's wrong with that?
Click to expand...

Your money is already being redistributed... to rich strangers, and not commoners. Everytime you visit a doctor, buy a medication, or use your private insurance, some fat, rich guy is sitting in his leather chair having a hardy laugh at your expense.

The fact that you can only see ONE angle of the situation - "my money and no one else's" - is obscuring the fact that UHC, if done correctly, would create healthy competition and thus reduce costs for the common people. But no, all you can see is your individualist "mine mine mine" point of view.

America doesn't deserve UHC. Its people want to remain ill and ripped off.
 
Orius said:
How much longer are people like you going to continue to milk the nationalist propaganda machine in order to justify lack of present action? I don't give a damn what happened 50+ years ago... it is not relevant to current domestic policy. Fact is, your government could spare that 1% easily while still maintaining a forward domestic momentum; the other fact is, though, that it won't, for the simple fact that the U.S. is a military nation and the welfare of its citizens is low priority.

Your entire system is setup to cater to the rich elites, and health care is one such aparatus: the pharmaceutical industry with its inflated prices, the insurance companies (and their corrupt, scheming rules), and the lack of public policy to regulate either.



Your money is already being redistributed... to rich strangers, and not commoners. Everytime you visit a doctor, buy a medication, or use your private insurance, some fat, rich guy is sitting in his leather chair having a hardy laugh at your expense.

The fact that you can only see ONE angle of the situation - "my money and no one else's" - is obscuring the fact that UHC, if done correctly, would create healthy competition and thus reduce costs for the common people. But no, all you can see is your individualist "mine mine mine" point of view.

America doesn't deserve UHC. Its people want to remain ill and ripped off.
Click to expand...

A decidedly simplistic and childish view that bears absolutely no relation to reality. Your lack of understanding of the subject is the stuff of legends. You show a definitive shortfall of grasping even basic economics, and couple that with a Pollyannish expectation of government propriety.
 
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Busted said:
A decidedly simplistic and childish view that bears absolutely no relation to reality. Your lack of understanding of the subject is the stuff of legends. You show a definitive shortfall of even basic economics, coupled with a naive expectation of government services.
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Your statement is ironic considering that it consists entirely of personal attacks, yet you haven't rebutted my individual points whatsoever.

A child calling another person childish. Quite amusing.
 
Orius said:
How much longer are people like you going to continue to milk the nationalist propaganda machine in order to justify lack of present action?
Click to expand...

Nationalist propaganda machine? People like me?

Pray, kind sir, could you clarify both of these statements?

I don't give a damn what happened 50+ years ago... it is not relevant to current domestic policy.
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A profound statement. Perhaps you should ponder its validity for a moment.

Fact is, your government could spare that 1% easily while still maintaining a forward domestic momentum; the other fact is, though, that it won't, for the simple fact that the U.S. is a military nation and the welfare of its citizens is low priority.
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1. Five billion dollars annually is hardly enough to support a UHC infrastructure. Obama's plan would cost one trillion...just to start.

2. America spends roughly ten percent of GDP on welfare programs

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.

3. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world.

Your entire system is setup to cater to the rich elites, and health care is one such aparatus: the pharmaceutical industry with its inflated prices, the insurance companies (and their corrupt, scheming rules), and the lack of public policy to regulate either.



Your money is already being redistributed... to rich strangers, and not commoners. Everytime you visit a doctor, buy a medication, or use your private insurance, some fat, rich guy is sitting in his leather chair having a hardy laugh at your expense.

The fact that you can only see ONE angle of the situation - "my money and no one else's" - is obscuring the fact that UHC, if done correctly, would create healthy competition and thus reduce costs for the common people. But no, all you can see is your individualist "mine mine mine" point of view.

America doesn't deserve UHC. Its people want to remain ill and ripped off.
Click to expand...

You're right. All I care about is myself. I've never helped a soul.
 
Orius said:
As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
Click to expand...

You're kidding me, right? Americans donate more to charity than any other country in the world. Twice as much as the next closest country monetarily. We don't believe in sharing?? Couldn't be further from the truth. We GREATLY believe in sharing and helping the needy - by choice, NOT by force.
 
Ethereal said:
Nationalist propaganda machine? People like me?

Pray, kind sir, could you clarify both of these statements?
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You'd essentially rather feel safe by having a pumped up military than sacrifice a miniscule amount of the military budget towards a better life for all Americans rich and poor, all based on major global conflicts from the past. Furthermore, you're implying that rebalancing the budget to include UHC will lead to loss of American foreign power. I highly doubt that.

America's foreign power is dwindling due to economic reasons, and nations with a healthier, educated population tend to have higher economic output. If millions didn't have to go into foreclosure because of hospital bills, maybe their money would be better spent.

Ethereal said:
A profound statement. Perhaps you should ponder its validity for a moment.
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Okay. A child who needs cancer treatment at a cost of $1 million and whose parents do not have coverage should not be entitled to have the costs covered because 50 years ago the USSR tried to spread Communism to the world. Now that makes sense.

Ethereal said:
1. Five billion dollars annually is hardly enough to support a UHC infrastructure. Obama's plan would cost one trillion...just to start.
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The total cost of UHC could be reduced with further refinement, the abolition of medicaid and medicare (since UHC could theoretically cover these), and with a contribution funneled from the military budget. Easy peasy.

People don't see possibilities because they are too busy crying about how their taxes are going to foot someone else's bill. They look for any excuse to not share, like the idea that their "rights" are being infringed upon by UHC.

Ethereal said:
2. America spends roughly ten percent of GDP on welfare programs
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Some of which could be combined as part of the UHC bill.

Ethereal said:
3. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
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Among the developed world it has one of the lowest.
 
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